Tournament All-in

[DrazaFFT]

Lets say you play wsop,ept,sunday storm or some big entry tourney and first hand you get AA in BB, 9 players go allin (not very possible but lets say that happens) you still would gamble with AA and risk whole tourney in first hand?

Do a simple test with cards deck,deal 5 cards on flop,deal to yourself AA than deal restnof deck on 8 positions,and check how many times aces are best hand

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Following that logic, would you fold AA in first hand of big tourney if someone is allin in front of you, you can still lose one in 5 times, that one time can be just that one... And another thing, if you play big tourneys you should be rolled for them so that size of the buyin doesn't effect your judgement, otherwise you would play scared and fold AA KK just to stay in, really really bad strategy
It doesn't madder how big the tourney is, how big the buyin is +ev decision is +ev decision, reread Dmorris post everything will be clear to you...

 

[magicius]

I am saying as more people is in hand AA loses its strenght... I was dealt recently AA in allin shootout and lost it vs j4.. I agree aa is strong and it should be played,but i wouldnt risk going allin in multiway pot 5 or more players

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[magicius]

Following that logic, would you fold AA in first hand of big tourney if someone is allin in front of you, you can still lose one in 5 times, that one time can be just that one... And another thing, if you play big tourneys you should be rolled for them so that size of the buyin doesn't effect your judgement, otherwise you would play scared and fold AA KK just to stay in, really really bad strategy
It doesn't madder how big the tourney is, how big the buyin is +ev decision is +ev decision, reread Dmorris post everything will be clear to you...

And would you go allin if you have AK or KK and whole table is all in?

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[DrazaFFT]

Again i say i see your point that it is risky, but you are looking it short term, long term it is a good decision, it is little harder to deal with long term aspect of poker while playing tourneys, it is much easier and simpler when you play cash...

Bad beats have nothing to do with anything, i lost AA to 62d, allin preflop, the flop was 662, it doesn't madder it is one hand opposed to tenish you win...

Dont look for short term results, dont be upset with short term bad runs, keep making good decision and you will be winner no madder what happens in one isolated hand...

 

[DrazaFFT]

And would you go allin if you have AK or KK and whole table is all in?

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KK yes, AK if short, heck if the whole table is allin i would do that with AK... I have never folded KK preflop, even if im almost sure that nit have AA and that im underdog i cant recall any spot that i actually fold it pre, i fold a lot AA KK AK post flop thou...

 

[magicius]

yes i agree on long term,but my point is that AA shouldnt be played all in in multiway pots you have 25% equity vs 75% that some of people in pot will hit 2 pairs,set,str8 and other hands...
in tournaments if whole table shove,i am defo folding it...:icon_spid

 

[dmorris68]

yes i agree on long term,but my point is that AA shouldnt be played all in in multiway pots you have 25% equity vs 75% that some of people in pot will hit 2 pairs,set,str8 and other hands...
in tournaments if whole table shove,i am defo folding it...:icon_spid

Again, I explained the +EV decision, which as a serious poker player is all you should be concerned with. If you're letting a buy-in affect your decisions, then you're likely not rolled for the games you're playing and shouldn't be playing them to start with.

Besides, you're arguing a largely hypothetical situation, anot a realistic one. I've been playing poker for years. Well over a million hands I'm sure, and a large portion of that being tournaments. Off the top of my head, I can't remember ever facing a 5-way AIPF. Not even in crazy micro-donk games. Much less one where I had AA.

I have seen and participated in a number of 3-way AIPFs however, sometimes holding AA, and even those are relatively rare. One that sticks in my mind would be my first ever live tournament where 3 of us got AIPF with me having AA vs KK vs JJ. JJ won by flopping a set (hey, live poker is rigged amirite?). Doesn't change the fact that it was a massively +EV play for me to get AIPF there (and a highly questionable one for JJ to call behind AA and KK all-in), and I would do it again without hesitation whether it was a $50 buy-in or a $50K buy-in. Tripling up in that spot often sets you up for a very good shot at winning the tournament, especially early when effective stacks are big.

You can play scared instead of correctly if you want to, and it's my goal as your opponent to get you to make mistakes (that's how I make money off you), so don't let me stop you from playing that way. But I'm going to speak up if you're attempting to advise others here to play wrong.

 

[jj20002]

against one player max two, holding aces or kings shove, if you don´t get a badbeat then you will pile up a good amount of chips early and you can play a little more hands and if all things go well you can make a deep run just because you take advantage of a monster hand early, obviously this is good for a low buyin, i don´t think anybody will shove in a wsop (well i saw this one, aces vs kings) or sunday million first hand is just sick

 

[magicius]

i am not arguing or am trying to... you are all maybe more experienced that i am...
i am just saying facts,if its first hand in tourney and i am holding AA,AK or KK i would fold them if 5+ people are allin... its less chance that strong pair will win the hand than if you are against 1 or 2 opponents, and if op just started playing tourneys i dont think they are with high buyin...
there are couple of donkfests where in first 1-5 hands all russkies go allin, they want either to double up early or to get out,so if i plan going deepstack into FT i would fold that hands,simple as that

 

[cleiton1988]

If you are playing freerolls do it with the risk of course but in serious tournament i think you shoul better not go all in and risk all your tour from the first hand

 

[dmorris68]

First, the word "argument" is used here to describe "debate," or the insistence on a position in spite of opposition. Nothing wrong with that, all debate is centered around an argument(s). The word isn't meant as a slight, or a suggestion that you're looking to fight about it. Just that you're being persistent in your view in the face of opposing views. So yes, you're presenting an argument, albeit a hypothetical rather than realistic one.

Back to the topic at hand...

Here's a similar type of decision (and more likely to happen than this hypothetical 5-way AIPF early in a big tourney) that was put to several pro's last year by PokerNews.

Basically they asked a number of pros if, on the very first hand of the WSOP ME with you at UTG+1, the UTG player shoved blind, what range (if any) would you call with? The answers might surprise you. Most amateurs would probably say AA, maybe KK, but a lot that think like you will say "I'm not getting AIPF on the first hand of the ME with 8 players behind me with *any* hand, even AA. I don't want to risk my tournament life early in such a big tourney." Heck, I might do the same even though I know better -- until I'm in that spot I guess I won't know for sure if I'd have the stones or not, and it would largely have to do with my BRM comfort factor.

Aside from the expected AA/KK, several of these pros said they're willing to gamble their ME on the first hand with much less, e.g. JJ+/AKs, top 15%, AQ+/99+, AJ+, A9+/88+, etc. One big reason is that for these pros, the 10K buy-in, even combined with the prestige of the ME, is not playing into their decision. They're making decisions based on things like EV, their edge, variance tolerance, players they're up against, and other things. Point being, you shouldn't be basing this decision on the cost of the tournament either. If you'd do this in a $5 tourney, you should do it in a $10K tourney.

It's not a direct comparison, but I hope it helps reinforce the point that you shouldn't be distracted by irrelevant details like buy-in or even "tournament life" (which btw is a laughable concept to a lot of poker players). There is a totality of different factors that should lead to your decision, not the least of which is the cold EV math that says this is the correct play to make. Very seldom should that be ignored or overridden.

 

[dmorris68]

You wouldn't happen to be 'nwdoub' at 2p2, would you?

its the WSOP ME,1st hand. 4 people ahead of you go all in u got AA. do you call?

That's a link to page 5 of the thread, which is where I started reading. Pretty much only nwdoub is arguing for a fold here, and is being nuked as a troll by virtually every other poster as being an idiot if he folds AA in a 4-way AIPF on the first hand of the WSOPME.

So it's not just a few of us saying this. You're in the (vast) minority if you think this is correct to do.

 

[magicius]

You wouldn't happen to be 'nwdoub' at 2p2, would you?

its the WSOP ME,1st hand. 4 people ahead of you go all in u got AA. do you call?

That's a link to page 5 of the thread, which is where I started reading. Pretty much only nwdoub is arguing for a fold here, and is being nuked as a troll by virtually every other poster as being an idiot if he folds AA in a 4-way AIPF on the first hand of the WSOPME.

So it's not just a few of us saying this. You're in the (vast) minority if you think this is correct to do.

thanks for link,i am going there to defend him