Table that plays a lot of limp bets

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ProMayhem

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Hello all,
New to the forum and new at really trying to know poker. Loving the site here. I feel like I am learning a lot.

Question is:
I am playing a table were very often everyone is limping in. I play .02/.04 and its .04 nearly every go. Do I open up my range at certain opportune times?

I am trying to stay discipline for the time being with basic strategy I have learned here.
So I use this chart and stay nearly 100. I know it sounds robotic but I'm trying to stay disciplined as its tough for me.
Here it is called "starting hands and table position"
https://www.cardschat.com/poker-starting-hands-percentage.php

Also been using this pot odds chart that is attached (I hope)


For instance can I open my range when in late positions? Is there even a time to open up my range when often others are limping or just stay with this for now until I get a better feel for post flop play? On the same page as the "Starting hands and table position" from cardschat (link above), below that chart is another chart called "Starting hand winning odds". In this case would you open your range to the hands with greater then 50% odds?

Thanks for any advice in advance.
 

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GreedyNephilim

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Hi there,
I know what you mean. I usually pick tables that are exactly like this, or even better, where the pot is raised everytime and there are always loose callers. There are two ways to attack this in my experience. The first one is to simply play premium hands, and play them hard. Of course you must consider how many opponents you are playing the pot for. For example, if you play AK from EP and you see two callers, don't keep betting unless you actually hit something on the flop. Just let it go and wait for next time if it ends up being only high card, because players like those just don't know when to fold. And if you do hit a pair or better, forget slow play and trapping. Just bet bet bet. Sure you might still lose sometimes because they can occasionally catch two pairs or trips, but that's part of the plan here. You can not put them on a hand and fold your very strong hands because they play everything. And yes, if you're holding AA or KK, you pretty much try your best to isolate one of them and just get it in by the river. So yeah, this is a very nitty approach where we're looking for an occasional pot, which should be as big as possible.
The second approach is a difficult, LAG-gy one. You don't stick to the chart here, and you deviate fairly regularly. It depends on how active your table is, of course. If there are always at least two - three in the pot, you can deviate a lot, provided it isn't costing you too much. And one important thing to always remember is to HAVE A PLAN PREFLOP AND NEVER DEVIATE FROM IT. For example, if everyone is just limping every time and not particularly raising, you can play stuff like 89s or 22 - 55 from pretty much any position. But like I said, you should have a plan before doing so and stick to it. What I mean to say is you are obviously playing 89s with a few other players hoping to hit at least top two or better, and yes something like a straight or flush draw on the flop is also good and you take it from there using that odds chart of yours. But, if the flop comes 9 T 5 with no draw for you, you shouldn't have a problem folding it if someone bets. This is where most beginners make a mistake. They pay the hand hoping for a straight/flush, but can't get themselves to fold their pair and lose money. So here you play a lot more hands, FOR CHEAP. You don't play 67s from EP if the pot is raised. But you can do that if you know the pot isn't going to be raised and there are only going to be limps. You just pay a big blind to see a good flop and let it go if you don't hit. Of course you should probably call from the button if it isn't a huge raise. This way, your opponents have a hard time figuring out what you are playing and what type of player you are, and since you play a lot of hands, you are likely to get paid for your big hands because they don't see you as a nit.
The second approach is for experienced players who know when and where and how much you can deviate from that chart. If you are really just starting out and don't understand stuff like what's really the difference between playing AK and KQ, or why it is recommended to not take hands like KJ or QJ too seriously unless they develop into monsters, then you should not take the second approach. If you are somewhat experienced though, feel free to explore and pick what suits you best. And yes, do let me know if you find a better way to tackle those limpy tables. Good luck.
 
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TCashMoney19

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Cool chart, I like that! I've played for about a year now and haven't seen something that clean and formatted, I'm probably gonna start using it now XD

As to your question, with a lot of limps, you should raise over limps with the vast majority of your continuing range. The only hands that I ever limp behind are small pair hands (22-66) that don't play well post flop in a bloated multi-way pot and benefit from having a lot of people in the pot when I do flop a set and have a lot of implied odds against weak opponents. However, for every other hand in my continuing range, I am ALWAYS raising. This benefits us in a multitude of ways:

1) We take initiative in the hand. We're playing our hand aggressively and showing everyone at the table that we like our hand and that it's solid, so on dry ace high or king high boards, we will generally take the pot down against one or two opponents pretty easily when we cbet. Aggression is key in NLHE, and allows us to win the pot by either making the best hand or making our opponents fold. When we simply limp and see a flop and play it passively, we can only win by making a better hand than our opponent, which is much hard to do than playing strong, aggressive TAG poker :)

2) We reduce the amount of players in the hand and increase our chances of winning. Lets take an extreme example here: In a heads up pot, AA wins nearly 80% of the time against almost any hand our opponent can hold. When we go 3 ways to a flop, that equity drops to about 60%. When we go 4 ways, it drops even more...see what I'm getting at? The odds get even worse for hands like AK, QQ and JJ, all hands that are within the top 5% of starting hands. Thinning the field is in our own best interest, as it gives us the opportunity to play a stronger range against less opponents and give us a better chance of taking the pot down on the flop and also getting value on later streets. And on that note...

3) We get more value from raising our hands preflop. When people limp, it's normally with an inferior range of hands that just wants to see a cheap flop and see if they hit anything. Players like this don't really have much of a strategy beyond that, so when we make them pay more to see flops with hands that don't normally flop strong most of the time, we're PRINTING money from these types of players and this is where your win rate will go up huge!

If you see that you're getting a lot of limp calls from a vast majority of the table, I would tighten up your opening range considerably, so that when you do flop strongly you can confidently and comfortably value bet for 3 streets against weak opponents. Good luck on the tables and hope this helped!
 
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ProMayhem

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Very good advice.

I nearly always raise 3x preflop if going in. In some instances I will raise heavier to attempt to iso. I do somewhat understand and have experienced what a good raise can do over limping. I like how you explain it though. It makes since and I haven't seen some of the points you've made. I can see where you are coming from on taking advantage of them limping with sticking to tight aggressive play.

Thanks
 
Lerts

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playing on a table with a lot of calling stations i tend to open up my range a whole lot, especially if its like 4-5 handed cash games. In doing this i get to guage my opposition a whole lot better, get a sense of who are the fish, slow rollers, nits etc etc.
 
vinnie

vinnie

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If the table is loose and passive pre-flop and has players who will pay off big hands post-flop, I will expand my limping range. I will basically start limping implied odds hands that do well in high SPR situations. There's no benefit to potting it from late position after 3 limpers, because they will just call. If we raise to 7.5xbb and get called in 3 spots by the limpers, the pot would be 31.5xbb on the flop (higher if the blinds call). The stacks will be 92.5xbb (assuming 100xbb effective stacks) and the SPR would be about 3. This is a horrible SPR for implied odds hands 4-way.

Now, limping behind with these implied odds hands or even open-limping when you know there will be tons of overlimps behind you, is totally exploitable. Your limping range is pretty obvious to decent players. You "could" limp other stuff, like AA, to try and balance your limps and "trap smart players" but that's over-thinking these weak tables. You aren't looking to tangle with the smart players, you are taking more than your share from the weak ones. If you find your limps getting exploited, just limp less.

Anyway, I don't like passive play, but these tables often call for it unless you want to stick to a super-tight and low-SPR range. It's nice when you flop the nuts with a suited connector and the stacks are deep, like a 5 way limped pot. You have plenty of customers and lots of money left to get in.
 
Matanzima

Matanzima

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I really liked the proposal of your topic and especially the analysis presented in the answers.

All this for me represents information and even in a short time window it can take much advantage and interpret the villains
 
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ProMayhem

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@vinnie & lerts

Thanks for the replies. Definitely things to chew on. These were in a way my first instincts but my caution is that I can't take advantage post flop as well as I should being new.

I didn't quite understand some of the abbreviations in yours vinnie, also I need to read up on implied odds again. So I will do some research. So much info to take in lol. I really appreciate the explanation from both you and Tcash. Good stuff.

Bring it if you guys got it! Different strokes for different folks.
 
vinnie

vinnie

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xbb = the amount of big blinds -- 31.5xbb means there is 31.5 big blinds out there or $63 at a $1/$2 live table.

SPR = Stack to Pot Ratio. This is the smaller of the two stacks divided by the current size of the pot. If the pot is $10, you have $80 and I have $110, the SPR would be $80 / $10 or 8. You probably have a different SPR with every player on the table unless you are the shortest stack.

SPR is important because it helps you define risk/reward. It is how much you could lose, divided by how much you currently stand to gain. If there's $1,000 in the middle and $300 left in your stack, it's going to be hard to find a fold with anything reasonable. There's just too much money out there. If there's $20 in the middle and $1,000 in your stack, you're likely not looking to get all-in without the pure nuts. There's not a lot of money out there compared to how much you have to lose.

Some hands play better with low SPRs (top pair, overpairs, middle pair and an over-card). You might be beat, but the pot is big compared to what you have to lose. Other hands play better with high SPRs (big draws, sets, etc.) and you are happy to invest some money because your implied odds are huge.

Different games, preflop action, number of players, and player tendencies all influence what you might consider Low, Medium, and High for SPRs. Usually:

0-1: Ultra low
1-4: Low
4-13: Medium-low to medium-high depending on action
13+: High

With SPRs less than 1, you're probably making a mistake if you fold or you made a mistake earlier in the hand. The only time it wouldn't be is if you have a dead read on your opponent and know you are drawing nearly dead. With SPRs greater than 13, you need 3 or more pot-sized bets to get all-in, so expect big hands. This is especially true in passive games, since there usually needs to be a raise to get above 13 and passive players only raise the nuts.
 
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