punctual
Legend
Silver Level
I believe any competition can be reduced to a matter of warfare. When it is you versus anyone, and you wish to prevail, I think Sun Tzu's "Art of War" can be applied.
I tend to be a thought-provoking type of person in general....I'm a big fan of alternative Eastern therapies myself like acupuncture. But throughout history there have been some people who have composed treatises which will be forever immortalized because of the wisdom inherent of them: Sun Tzu's work just happens to be one of these writings which will surely survive until the very end of time with Sun Tzu just so happening (by chance or not) to have been from the Far East.
punctual
Legend
Silver Level
So to you tournaments are a battle of sorts. Sun Tzu's "Art of War" will probably help you in your strategizing.
punctual
Legend
Silver Level
Excerpt #5
All warfare is based on deception.
Hence, when able to attack we must seem unable; when using our forces, we must seem inactive; when we are near, we must make the enemy believe we are far away; when far away we must make him believe we are near.
Hold out baits to entice the enemy. Feign disorder and crush him.
All warfare is based on deception.
Hence, when able to attack we must seem unable; when using our forces, we must seem inactive; when we are near, we must make the enemy believe we are far away; when far away we must make him believe we are near.
Hold out baits to entice the enemy. Feign disorder and crush him.
punctual
Legend
Silver Level
Once your opponents figure out how you play, they will have superior advantage over you. So you must always mix up your play.
Therefore, you must be deceptive in poker.
You must not be predictable.
You must have your opponents thinking you are up to one thing when in fact you are up to another.
You must use your opponent's misguided perception of your thinking process against him. Leading your opponent to believe you regularly steal with weak hands, for example, when in fact this is not the case can really set him up for a trap later on.
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BearPlay
Cardschat Elite
Silver Level
We're more alike than I realized.
This, specifically, is what I was referring to... when I said that the T/A principles were even too nitty for me:
http://www.suntzupoker.com/texas-holdem-no-limit-starting-hand-guide.aspx
I'm enjoying the excerpts to the book. Paws up!
punctual
Legend
Silver Level
We're more alike than I realized.
This, specifically, is what I was referring to... when I said that the T/A principles were even too nitty for me:
http://www.suntzupoker.com/texas-holdem-no-limit-starting-hand-guide.aspx
I'm enjoying the excerpts to the book. Paws up!
Hey, it seems more popular than I had thought to apply Sun Tzu's "Art of War" to poker; you found a site that does this. I wouldn't say the Sun Tzu method is necessarily nitty just because one website says so (after all, I highly doubt it is Sun Tzu himself who owns that website....unless he is a highlander).
I honestly don't think one prevails in any competitive setting by being primarily nitty and I am pretty certain that being nitty in poker will only take you so far.
I think anyone who states you should stick to certain starting hands from each position really doesn't know what he/she is talking about. There are times when you can play any hand from any position and it would be the right play. Starting hands based on position are more for beginners, IMHO.
One of the key elements of Sun Tzu's writing is versatility. There are times to be nitty (particularly when there are aggressive players at the table) and there are times to be loose aggressive (when there are nitties at the table). Switching it up between the two styles is essential, I believe. Knowing precisely when and how to do this most effectively is the art of poker!
punctual
Legend
Silver Level
Excerpt #6
If he is secure at all points, be prepared for him. If he is in superior strength, evade him.
If your opponent is of choleric temper, seek to irritate him. Pretend to be weak, that he may grow arrogant.
If he is taking his ease, give him no rest.
If his forces are united, separate them.
Attack him where he is unprepared, appear where you are not expected.
These military devices, leading to victory, must not be divulged beforehand.
If he is secure at all points, be prepared for him. If he is in superior strength, evade him.
If your opponent is of choleric temper, seek to irritate him. Pretend to be weak, that he may grow arrogant.
If he is taking his ease, give him no rest.
If his forces are united, separate them.
Attack him where he is unprepared, appear where you are not expected.
These military devices, leading to victory, must not be divulged beforehand.
punctual
Legend
Silver Level
If he is secure at all points, be prepared for him. If he is in superior strength, evade him.
When your poker opponent has no discernible weaknesses it is better you avoid playing against him until one surfaces especially if you believe him to be a stronger player than you are.
If your opponent is of choleric temper, seek to irritate him. Pretend to be weak, that he may grow arrogant.
People make mistakes when they are hot headed. If your opponent is the type to get hot-headed, then actively pursue that outcome. Do whatever it takes to throw your opponents off their game and cause them to make bad decisions. Show him how weak you are so he can arrogantly attempt to push you around; use his arrogance against him by making correct decisions against his bad ones.
If he is taking his ease, give him no rest.
When a player seems to be limping in very often make sure you are there to raise him; battles of warfare should not be easily won or lost: every pot should be fought for and no opponent should be given an easy victory.
If his forces are united, separate them.
When playing against a player who religiously sticks to his plan you must attempt to thwart his efforts at sticking to the plan. Appearing to be a bad player may throw him off his game: if he thinks you are playing with weaker hands than you should be, he may start to deviate from his own plan and play weaker hands against you.
Attack him where he is unprepared, appear where you are not expected.
Wildly switching up your play at the right moment can catch your opponent off guard. Calling a bet every once in a while just for the hell of it and then showing down your hand can really confuse your opponent and have him thinking "I didn't expect that one" The more he/she thinks "I didn't expect that one" the more of an edge you will have.
These military devices, leading to victory, must not be divulged beforehand.
Try not to give away the fact that your play actually conforms to a plan. Lead your opponents to believe that you are a weak player with no plan.
When your poker opponent has no discernible weaknesses it is better you avoid playing against him until one surfaces especially if you believe him to be a stronger player than you are.
If your opponent is of choleric temper, seek to irritate him. Pretend to be weak, that he may grow arrogant.
People make mistakes when they are hot headed. If your opponent is the type to get hot-headed, then actively pursue that outcome. Do whatever it takes to throw your opponents off their game and cause them to make bad decisions. Show him how weak you are so he can arrogantly attempt to push you around; use his arrogance against him by making correct decisions against his bad ones.
If he is taking his ease, give him no rest.
When a player seems to be limping in very often make sure you are there to raise him; battles of warfare should not be easily won or lost: every pot should be fought for and no opponent should be given an easy victory.
If his forces are united, separate them.
When playing against a player who religiously sticks to his plan you must attempt to thwart his efforts at sticking to the plan. Appearing to be a bad player may throw him off his game: if he thinks you are playing with weaker hands than you should be, he may start to deviate from his own plan and play weaker hands against you.
Attack him where he is unprepared, appear where you are not expected.
Wildly switching up your play at the right moment can catch your opponent off guard. Calling a bet every once in a while just for the hell of it and then showing down your hand can really confuse your opponent and have him thinking "I didn't expect that one" The more he/she thinks "I didn't expect that one" the more of an edge you will have.
These military devices, leading to victory, must not be divulged beforehand.
Try not to give away the fact that your play actually conforms to a plan. Lead your opponents to believe that you are a weak player with no plan.
B
bluejay2220
Rock Star
Silver Level
I agree very much with playing any hand anytime. People get mad when you do that and call names, but if One only plays with those hands and only plays a certain way, then everyone has an idea of what you have and you will lose unless cards are running good. Everyone wants you to play their game; make them play yours!
mange1234
Legend
Silver Level
Sun Tzu
What does Sun Tzu say about patience. The Viet Cong/NVA believed if they were patience, the Americans would finally quit the war.
We all know that being patience in a poker game is important.
Robert E. Lee ignored several of Sun Tzu's theories at Gettysburg. One major one was to take the high ground, and not charge up hill, to wit: Pickett's charge.
mike
What does Sun Tzu say about patience. The Viet Cong/NVA believed if they were patience, the Americans would finally quit the war.
We all know that being patience in a poker game is important.
Robert E. Lee ignored several of Sun Tzu's theories at Gettysburg. One major one was to take the high ground, and not charge up hill, to wit: Pickett's charge.
mike
punctual
Legend
Silver Level
punctual
Legend
Silver Level
I'd rather not jump ahead in the book but there is a passage that says something along the lines of: while you are at ease, patiently wait for the enemy to tire himself out. This is to say, let your enemy tire himself out and you will remain replenished.
I am sure there were many of Sun Tzu's theories that even Alexander the Great failed to adhere to (realizing that his enemy was unreachable due to being located on an island in the middle of the ocean, Alexander decided to build a bridge from the mainland to that island for hte sole purpose of conquest...LOL...it sounds crazy but this worked for him). Sometimes fearlessness trumps theory. (though making your enemy fear you is also something Sun Tzu talks about as well so maybe Alexander's fearlessness created enough fear in the enemy such that other aspects of Sun Tzu's war principles could be passed over?)
punctual
Legend
Silver Level
Excerpt #7
The general who loses a battle makes but a few calculations beforehand. Thus do many calculations lead to victory, and few calculations to defeat: how much more no calculation at all! It is by attention to this point that I can forsee who is likely to win or lose.
The general who loses a battle makes but a few calculations beforehand. Thus do many calculations lead to victory, and few calculations to defeat: how much more no calculation at all! It is by attention to this point that I can forsee who is likely to win or lose.
punctual
Legend
Silver Level
You don't just play a tournament or cash game and hope for the best. You make calculations based on your opponents' play to determine their styles and the best methods you can apply to beat them. Every decision you make must be made within the context of the players you are playing against. Every decision your opponents make must be analyzed so you can surmise the reason for the decision. Acquiring such knowledge on your opponents will give you an edge against them. Not acquiring such knowledge will, over the long run, make you a losing player
punctual
Legend
Silver Level
Excerpt #8
In the operations of war, where there are in the field a thousand swift chariots, as many heavy chariots, and a hundred thousand mail-clad soldiers, with provisions enough to carry them a thousand LI (1 mile is about 3 LI), the expenditure at home and at the front, including entertainment of guests, small items such as glue and paint, and sums spent on chariots and armor, will reach the total of a thousand ounces of silver per day. Such is the cost of raising an army of 100,000 men
In the operations of war, where there are in the field a thousand swift chariots, as many heavy chariots, and a hundred thousand mail-clad soldiers, with provisions enough to carry them a thousand LI (1 mile is about 3 LI), the expenditure at home and at the front, including entertainment of guests, small items such as glue and paint, and sums spent on chariots and armor, will reach the total of a thousand ounces of silver per day. Such is the cost of raising an army of 100,000 men
punctual
Legend
Silver Level
There is a daily cost to playing poker. Fortunately, in this day and age, we can choose just how much that cost will be by choosing the right limits for our bankrolls. In poker, your bankroll is the fuel that allows you to keep on playing, an essential, if not the most essential, part of your arsenal: you must be adequately funded to maximize your success rate. You must be funded well enough so that the losses that come on a daily basis (the cost of doing business) will not stop you from continuing to play each day. Along with your sufficiently sized bankroll must also be security at home: you must be able to support yourself without dipping into your bankroll. Otherwise, you will not be engaging war from a position of strength as you incessantly worry about things having nothing to do with the war at hand (namely, how you are going to find something to eat that night once you are finished playing poker for the day).
There is no way around it. You must pay your dues in poker. There is a cost to playing each day and if you are not adequately funded you will find yourself playing less than optimally as you allow external factors affect your poker decisions....
punctual
Legend
Silver Level
Excerpt #9
When you engage in actual fighting, if victory is long in coming, then men's weapons will grow dull and their ardor will be damped. If you lay siege to a town, you will exhaust your strength.
Again, if the campaign is protracted, the resources of the state will not be equal to the strain.
Now, when your weapons are dulled, your ardor damped, your strength exhausted and your treasure spent, other chieftains will spring up to take advantage of your extremity. then no man, however wise, will be able to avert the consequences that must ensue.
Thus, though we have heard of stupid haste in war, cleverness has never been associated with long delays.
When you engage in actual fighting, if victory is long in coming, then men's weapons will grow dull and their ardor will be damped. If you lay siege to a town, you will exhaust your strength.
Again, if the campaign is protracted, the resources of the state will not be equal to the strain.
Now, when your weapons are dulled, your ardor damped, your strength exhausted and your treasure spent, other chieftains will spring up to take advantage of your extremity. then no man, however wise, will be able to avert the consequences that must ensue.
Thus, though we have heard of stupid haste in war, cleverness has never been associated with long delays.
punctual
Legend
Silver Level
When you engage in actual fighting, if victory is long in coming, then men's weapons will grow dull and their ardor will be damped. If you lay siege to a town, you will exhaust your strength.
While you must be patient at the poker table, you must not linger too long without making a move: the more hands you play without making a move, the more chips are spent as you lay in wait. If you wait too long, your ability to make your presence felt by the rest of the table diminishes as your chip stack dwindles: if betting size at the poker table is analogous to a soldier's weapon at war then the longer you wait, the more dull that weapon becomes (i.e., the smaller your stack size, the less of a threat your bets become to your opponents). On top of that, the lack of action will likely have you bored and not truly ready for battle in mind and spirit.
Again, if the campaign is protracted, the resources of the state will not be equal to the strain.
So if you wait too long before making a move in a poker tournament, your arsenal will be weak, your ambition to win will have been muffled, and your prospects of success will have become but a hope, a wish, and a dream.
Now, when your weapons are dulled, your ardor damped, your strength exhausted and your treasure spent, other chieftains will spring up to take advantage of your extremity. then no man, however wise, will be able to avert the consequences that must ensue.
Players who notice your lackadaisicity will surely capitalize on your weak position by betting at you with less than optimal hands knowing that in the worst case they have to face off with a short stack and that, because of the style of play you have demonstrated thus far in the tournament, most of the time their bets will be met with a fold. No matter how good a player you are (i.e. wise), when you are weak you are weak and there is no amount of wisdom that can save you from the vultures at the table that will pick at the flesh of the weak.
Thus, though we have heard of stupid haste in war, cleverness has never been associated with long delays.
While there is much to be said for being too forceful, galant, and aggressive too soon in a tournament (namely that most of the time it is unwise to engage in rapid, thoughtless, gung-ho style poker play as it will lead to a quick bust-out of the tournament), we must know also that overly long delays in making a move at the poker table are perhaps even more dangerous: as time passes, your arsenal diminishes, your position gets weaker, and, variance aside, you forfeit any real prospect of prevailing in the tournament if you wait too long before making a move. Though it may be unwise to get too aggressive too early in a tournament at least this protects your arsenal from depreciation; it can be construed, therefore, as even more unwise to wait too long before making a move because the move you do eventually make will be inconsequential as it will be made from a position of weakness (which is to say, when you are shortstacked you are often willing to go to battle, i.e. put all your chips in, with Ax or even worse, very weak indeed)
While you must be patient at the poker table, you must not linger too long without making a move: the more hands you play without making a move, the more chips are spent as you lay in wait. If you wait too long, your ability to make your presence felt by the rest of the table diminishes as your chip stack dwindles: if betting size at the poker table is analogous to a soldier's weapon at war then the longer you wait, the more dull that weapon becomes (i.e., the smaller your stack size, the less of a threat your bets become to your opponents). On top of that, the lack of action will likely have you bored and not truly ready for battle in mind and spirit.
Again, if the campaign is protracted, the resources of the state will not be equal to the strain.
So if you wait too long before making a move in a poker tournament, your arsenal will be weak, your ambition to win will have been muffled, and your prospects of success will have become but a hope, a wish, and a dream.
Now, when your weapons are dulled, your ardor damped, your strength exhausted and your treasure spent, other chieftains will spring up to take advantage of your extremity. then no man, however wise, will be able to avert the consequences that must ensue.
Players who notice your lackadaisicity will surely capitalize on your weak position by betting at you with less than optimal hands knowing that in the worst case they have to face off with a short stack and that, because of the style of play you have demonstrated thus far in the tournament, most of the time their bets will be met with a fold. No matter how good a player you are (i.e. wise), when you are weak you are weak and there is no amount of wisdom that can save you from the vultures at the table that will pick at the flesh of the weak.
Thus, though we have heard of stupid haste in war, cleverness has never been associated with long delays.
While there is much to be said for being too forceful, galant, and aggressive too soon in a tournament (namely that most of the time it is unwise to engage in rapid, thoughtless, gung-ho style poker play as it will lead to a quick bust-out of the tournament), we must know also that overly long delays in making a move at the poker table are perhaps even more dangerous: as time passes, your arsenal diminishes, your position gets weaker, and, variance aside, you forfeit any real prospect of prevailing in the tournament if you wait too long before making a move. Though it may be unwise to get too aggressive too early in a tournament at least this protects your arsenal from depreciation; it can be construed, therefore, as even more unwise to wait too long before making a move because the move you do eventually make will be inconsequential as it will be made from a position of weakness (which is to say, when you are shortstacked you are often willing to go to battle, i.e. put all your chips in, with Ax or even worse, very weak indeed)
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punctual
Legend
Silver Level
Excerpt #10
There is no instance of a country having benefited from prolonged warfare.
It is only one who is thoroughly acquainted with the evils of war that can thoroughly understand the profitable way of carrying it on.
There is no instance of a country having benefited from prolonged warfare.
It is only one who is thoroughly acquainted with the evils of war that can thoroughly understand the profitable way of carrying it on.
punctual
Legend
Silver Level
There is no instance of a country having benefited from prolonged warfare.
Your goal should be to be to win in the least amount of time possible. the longer the tournament takes, the more resources are used on all sides. this is not good for any party involved. this is not to say one should make haste and make bad decisions. But to linger for the sake of anything but the win is foolhardy at best. As an example, in chess I have played a player who could have mated me in an instant (i have only my king left and he still has other pieces) but instead wished to arrogantly advance all his pawns to queens....in doing so, he made it much easier for me eek out a stalemate.
In poker I guess the same could be seen in a situation where lets say there are three players left in a tourney one huge stack and two small stacks and lets say only top two places pay. Well, I have been in situations where I have seen the deepstack intentionally let one of the other players win hands in order that the "worry of not cashing" would remain a factor for the two shortstacks and so they would both play very cautiously. With this strategy, the deepstack hopes to blind both of the other players out rather than have to go head to head with them. In my opinion, this strategy often backfires; there is no need to unecessarily prolong a tournament. Go for the kill as quickly and as efficiently as possible.
It is only one who is thoroughly acquainted with the evils of war that can thoroughly understand the profitable way of carrying it on.
You must play a lot of hands in poker to have a chance at beating seasoned professionals, IMHO. Only by living through cycles of play can you truly experience the good and bad side of poker. the good side comes when you run well, the bad side comes when variance seems to kick your butt over a long period of time. If you have not played enough, you will not be adequately prepared for the worst that a war can bring to your front door.
Your goal should be to be to win in the least amount of time possible. the longer the tournament takes, the more resources are used on all sides. this is not good for any party involved. this is not to say one should make haste and make bad decisions. But to linger for the sake of anything but the win is foolhardy at best. As an example, in chess I have played a player who could have mated me in an instant (i have only my king left and he still has other pieces) but instead wished to arrogantly advance all his pawns to queens....in doing so, he made it much easier for me eek out a stalemate.
In poker I guess the same could be seen in a situation where lets say there are three players left in a tourney one huge stack and two small stacks and lets say only top two places pay. Well, I have been in situations where I have seen the deepstack intentionally let one of the other players win hands in order that the "worry of not cashing" would remain a factor for the two shortstacks and so they would both play very cautiously. With this strategy, the deepstack hopes to blind both of the other players out rather than have to go head to head with them. In my opinion, this strategy often backfires; there is no need to unecessarily prolong a tournament. Go for the kill as quickly and as efficiently as possible.
It is only one who is thoroughly acquainted with the evils of war that can thoroughly understand the profitable way of carrying it on.
You must play a lot of hands in poker to have a chance at beating seasoned professionals, IMHO. Only by living through cycles of play can you truly experience the good and bad side of poker. the good side comes when you run well, the bad side comes when variance seems to kick your butt over a long period of time. If you have not played enough, you will not be adequately prepared for the worst that a war can bring to your front door.
okeedokalee
Glory To Ukraine
Loyaler
Google Sun Tzu on youtube there is a full documentary.
Watched and incorporated his ideas and since then cannot win. I have also been studying poker tactics more deeply at the moment, and it is my belief long term this will be of greater benefit than the superficial game most of us play.
I thank you Punctual for your contributions on this subject and your thoughtful commentary.
Watched and incorporated his ideas and since then cannot win. I have also been studying poker tactics more deeply at the moment, and it is my belief long term this will be of greater benefit than the superficial game most of us play.
I thank you Punctual for your contributions on this subject and your thoughtful commentary.
punctual
Legend
Silver Level
Thanks for thanking me
. You may just be in the inescapable downturn that we all face at one time or another in our poker journeys. Just keep focus on making the right decisions and over time you will notice improvements. Good Luck.
punctual
Legend
Silver Level
Excerpt #11
The skillful soldier does not raise a second levy, neither are his supply-wagons loaded more than twice.
Bring war material with you from home, but forage on the enemy. Thus the army will have food enough for its needs.
The skillful soldier does not raise a second levy, neither are his supply-wagons loaded more than twice.
Bring war material with you from home, but forage on the enemy. Thus the army will have food enough for its needs.
punctual
Legend
Silver Level
The skillful soldier does not raise a second levy, neither are his supply-wagons loaded more than twice.
When you start a tournament, it can sometimes be wise to jump right in and attempt to take a lead from the very beginning. This is especially the case in turbo tournaments where blinds will increase rapidly. There is much benefit to jumping right in rather than waiting for the perfect hand. This particular quote from the 'Art of War' seems to warn of waiting for your army to be perfectly armed before attacking; there is no such thing as perfect: when at war, go ahead and plunge in for otherwise you may never feel ready enough to take action....
Bring war material with you from home, but forage on the enemy. Thus the army will have food enough for its needs.
In a tournament we all start with the same number of chips; our goal is to take everyone else's chips. So the amount we start with is insignificant compared to the amount we need to end up with: we must keep this in mind always: we can not win the tournament without taking other player chips. So while the chips we have are important in giving us our start in the tournament, it will be other players chips that actually propel us to victory
When you start a tournament, it can sometimes be wise to jump right in and attempt to take a lead from the very beginning. This is especially the case in turbo tournaments where blinds will increase rapidly. There is much benefit to jumping right in rather than waiting for the perfect hand. This particular quote from the 'Art of War' seems to warn of waiting for your army to be perfectly armed before attacking; there is no such thing as perfect: when at war, go ahead and plunge in for otherwise you may never feel ready enough to take action....
Bring war material with you from home, but forage on the enemy. Thus the army will have food enough for its needs.
In a tournament we all start with the same number of chips; our goal is to take everyone else's chips. So the amount we start with is insignificant compared to the amount we need to end up with: we must keep this in mind always: we can not win the tournament without taking other player chips. So while the chips we have are important in giving us our start in the tournament, it will be other players chips that actually propel us to victory