Slowrolls bad or acceptable?

[pockerman]

I am a new player. I've been playing for about a month. but only today I came across such a designation as a slowroll. since I did not understand the meaning,
I watched a couple of videos, and roughly understood the meaning of this word. but I also saw that in the poker world, this action causes a negative attitude. and I can't understand this. Maybe due to the fact that I'm a new player, maybe because of my upbringing?
I do not know. but in my opinion, this is also part of the game, the actor's ability to hide their emotions, confuse the opponent, and so on. Please comment on your experience and opinion on this, and if possible tell your story. Maybe then I'll understand more?

 

[Propane Goat]

Slow-rolling is often confused with slow-playing.

Slow-rolling occurs when a player knows they have the best possible hand at the river and delays their final action for as long as possible when there is no reason to do so. Slow-playing is different: when you slow-play, you either check or call bets and act like you're weak but you don't raise because you're trying to conceal the strength of your hand and allow aggressive players to continue betting when they most likely have a weaker hand.

For example, let's say that two players are in the hand at the river.
The board shows

Player A is holding for an Ace-high straight and shoves all in.
Player B is holding for Quads and knows that this is the best possible hand or "the nuts."

Player B spends a lot of time pretending to think about whether to call and acts like they have a tough decision when they are actually unbeatable and guaranteed to win the pot- this is slow-rolling. Player B should call and flip their cards over immediately. Slow-rolling is considered bad etiquette because you know you're already going to hurt the other player but you're intentionally taunting them or "rubbing it in."

 

[DS3]

Slow-rolling is often confused with slow-playing....

Excellent explanation for a newbie.

I would also like to add (though I hope it does not muddy the clarity given above) that I feel many are quick to accuse someone of slow rolling when they were doing nothing of the sort. It's frequently a knee jerk reaction to accuse someone of slow rolling when the opposing player has hesitated, but then wins the hand with (obviously) a stronger holding. Unless as Propane Goat has detailed above, the player is holding the absolute nuts, then there can/should be pause for thought in crucial hands.

A example which springs to mind was when John Cynn won the wsop main event in 2018.

Cynn won the final hand and Tony Miles reacted by saying he had been slow rolled (he did apologize later), but there were several reasons (including several million dollars) why Cynn hesitated. The playing style of Miles, their history of hands played and the fact he did not technically hold the nuts. Note that Cynn had recently lost a huge pot where his aces had been cracked by a straight. Miles could have been holding AK, KQ , K8 or K5 as well as four to a flush.

I have attached a clip of that final hand and it should be informative for you watch and to read through the comments underneath.

 

[fundiver199]

A example which springs to mind was when John Cynn won the WSOP main event in 2018.

I dont think, John Cynn was seriously contemplating a fold, but what he did was not a slowroll for the reasons stated by you. Instead it was classic table talk, where the player having to make a big decision keep on talking to see, if he can get some kind of reaction from his opponent, that might give away the strength of the opponents hand. This is why, John Cynn say things like "I dont have AK or KQ", and he even say "I promise I am not slowrolling you".

While all of this is going on, Tony Miles has to maintain his best poker face, and I think, he was just disappointed after the hand, that he came so close but failed to take the tittle. Maybe he was also a bit annoyed at himself, because he had essentially bluffed away the rest of his chips with a random airball, that was drawing dead on the turn. And then we get this reaction, which you talk about, where people take it out on their opponent with statements like "why were you slowrolling me".

But for several reasons this was not a slowroll including the fact, John Cynn could easily have been beat by hands, that would play this way. But also the fact, that John Cynn quickly say "I dont think, I can fold this". So its not even like, he was trying to give the impression, that he was likely to fold. As Tony Miles, if you hear that statement holding Q8, you pretty much know already, that you are screwed.

 

[fundiver199]

Slow-rolling is often confused with slow-playing.

Slow-rolling occurs when a player knows they have the best possible hand at the river and delays their final action for as long as possible when there is no reason to do so. Slow-playing is different: when you slow-play, you either check or call bets and act like you're weak but you don't raise because you're trying to conceal the strength of your hand and allow aggressive players to continue betting when they most likely have a weaker hand.

For example, let's say that two players are in the hand at the river.
The board shows

Player A is holding for an Ace-high straight and shoves all in.
Player B is holding for Quads and knows that this is the best possible hand or "the nuts."

Player B spends a lot of time pretending to think about whether to call and acts like they have a tough decision when they are actually unbeatable and guaranteed to win the pot- this is slow-rolling. Player B should call and flip their cards over immediately. Slow-rolling is considered bad etiquette because you know you're already going to hurt the other player but you're intentionally taunting them or "rubbing it in."

Excellent example. Just want to add, that some people will also consider it a slowroll, if Player B is holding a hand, which is not the stone nuts, but which it is still obvious, he is never going to fold. Like for instance AA. If you have AA on this board, are you really that worried, your opponent has 44? Probably not, so if you go into the tank and maybe engage in a lot of table talk (live poker), this is still a slowroll.

Obviously it is then up for debate, when its no longer a slowroll, and this will also depend of the previous action. Maybe if player B hold a K high flush, it could still be obvious, he is never going to fold. But it might be more of a "nitroll" rather than a slowroll, since he would in fact lose to any full house.

 

[pockerman]

Slow-rolling is often confused with slow-playing.

Slow-rolling occurs when a player knows they have the best possible hand at the river and delays their final action for as long as possible when there is no reason to do so. Slow-playing is different: when you slow-play, you either check or call bets and act like you're weak but you don't raise because you're trying to conceal the strength of your hand and allow aggressive players to continue betting when they most likely have a weaker hand.

For example, let's say that two players are in the hand at the river.
The board shows

Player A is holding for an Ace-high straight and shoves all in.
Player B is holding for Quads and knows that this is the best possible hand or "the nuts."

Player B spends a lot of time pretending to think about whether to call and acts like they have a tough decision when they are actually unbeatable and guaranteed to win the pot- this is slow-rolling. Player B should call and flip their cards over immediately. Slow-rolling is considered bad etiquette because you know you're already going to hurt the other player but you're intentionally taunting them or "rubbing it in."

Your example shows Slowrolls. Yes. And it’s a not a respective attitude to your opponent.
But as with Cynn in video in post lower we can see, than some situations can be regarded as Slowrolls. But for me is obviously it’s not. Opponent made fast all in. And he had to make hard decision, no wonder he took some time to think. Yes he had good card but… hey he didn’t knew what had opponent. So in game situations no such obviously examples of slow rolling. So basically you can be charged for slowrolling , even if you not. And it’s a bit hard situation.
So I believe discussion is still open. What you think about slowrolling, and did you had such situations?

 

[alien666dj]

Slowroll should be punished with a ban from playing for at least a year. After all, deceiving an opponent is one thing, but dragging out time until the last second showing disrespect for an opponent is too much. Especially when it is visible and so that time stretches on purpose.

 

[Joe]

Yeah, don't intentionally slow-roll people... :thumpdown

It's very uncouth behaviour which serves no positive purpose.

If anyone wants to openly be a rude, negative, disrespectful, trashy and (quite frankly) horrid poker player- they should slow-roll at every opportunity.

Years ago, it used to be upsetting when people slow-rolled me, these days I just chuckle to myself and think how amusing it is when people enjoy proudly wearing a 'scumbag' label, haha.. :laugh:

It's much more satisfying to snap off and start stacking chips all the sooner! :icon_thum

 

[Pimp 007 x]

I've been accused of slow rolling kings, preflop, even though I was seriously contemplating if the risk of possibly being kicked out of the tournament was worth it. (the opponent covered me but I was not low in chips Bb-wise... So it was an authentic time consuming decision...


But it you are consciously easting time when you have the nuts and it's your turn to act... Then yes, you are an a hole.

 

[Baldy86]

in my personal opinion slow rolling should be penalized

it is a very rude and offensive move . the only time i would slowroll someone is if the person has been a jerk and said offensive things the whole time and is a douchebag . OR if he/she slowrolled me before . other than that it is not okay

 

[julio gonzalez]

slowroll

Hi, it's not good or bad, it's a way of playing and you have to accept it. because it is a part of playing poker

 

[Joe]

Hi, it's not good or bad, it's a way of playing and you have to accept it. because it is a part of playing poker

:icon_scra

I think your opinion of slow-rolling being 'not good or bad' puts you in the minority on this one...

Slow-rolling is widely accepted as poor form and bad etiquette at the felts and is a one-way ticket to having every commentator, spectator and neutral wishing for you to lose.

Just because we have to learn to deal with horrible people in poker and in life, that doesn't mean their behaviour is correct or justified. :dontknow:

 

[DS3]

Well, I posted the John Cynn clip as I believe people are quick to accuse others of slow rolling, but yes, as behavior I do think it somewhat poor form. That said, I find poker etiquette in general a somewhat comical and contradictory idea. Therefore when it comes to slow rolling being regarded as a mortal offense, I can't take it that seriously.

Poker is frequently about misdirection, or more to the point lying. Often this includes a degree of aggressive table talk, intimidating stares and even actions which are borderline angle shots. When these actions are debated many argue all is fair in love and war - that's poker. So pearl clutching after a slow roll as though an imaginary boundary of precious gentlemanly and ladylike behavior has been crossed, makes me laugh.

I'll repeat, a slow roll is bad form in my opinion but nothing worse than a whole bunch of techniques people use throughout the game. Further it has been argued that used judiciously, it can tilt not just a player but several at the table- which is a technique to employ.

As for calling for slow rolls to be punished I think that a ludicrous idea. At the last WSOP there were examples of of players pulling stunts at the table. Chance Kornuth was accused of borderline angle shooting for moving his chip stacks as though preparing to bet. What most missed (not all) was the more egregious act he repeatedly made was of hand gestures pretending to muck his hand - numerous times against less experienced players (my guess was he would not have the audacity to make such gestures against a table full of similar pros - he would have been called on it).

However, once the situation blew up on social media, though many thought it underhand behavior, others came to his defense 'all part of the game'. Obviously there was no punishment for his actions. So- if that type of 'play' can get a pass then slow rolling, whilst petty as hell, should get a pass also. All part of the game.

And just for karmas sake, here my favorite slow roll gone wrong by Mikel Habb (a clown) against the divine Samantha Abernathy with Jason Somerville providing the great commentary...

 

[fundiver199]

Well, I posted the John Cynn clip as I believe people are quick to accuse others of slow rolling, but yes, as behavior I do think it somewhat poor form. That said, I find poker etiquette in general a somewhat comical and contradictory idea. Therefore when it comes to slow rolling being regarded as a mortal offense, I can't take it that seriously.

Completely agree. While a slowroll is definitely bad behaviour, it does not affect the outcome of the hand, so talking about "punishment" is ridiculous.

And just for karmas sake, here my favorite slow roll gone wrong by Mikel Habb (a clown) against the divine Samantha Abernathy with Jason Somerville providing the great commentary...

That one is in fact hilarious, and what many dont know, is that it actually start with an angleshoot. Mikel Habb had KK and pretended, he just wanted to call an open raise from another player, but "accidentally" put out so many chips, he had to raise. Samantha then jammed 66, maybe being fooled by his angle, and then he did the slowroll

 

[Zapahlohotrona]

Slowroll is perhaps the lowest moral action that is not prohibited by the rules.

 

[pockerman]

Yes, it's rude behavior, but on the other hand... okay, I understand the players, they made a decision long before they said it out loud, but not to blame the player being slow in his decisions??? That's why I don't really understand. Maybe you should think a bit. fold and continue, or all-in and goodbye . And what to do if you don't know what to do? And instead of understanding it, people begin to insult you with you are slow roller.

The problem is that you can't say 100% it's done intentionally or not. It's a problem

Not in all situations, but in some for sure

 

[fundiver199]

And what to do if you don't know what to do?

Please read the explanation given in the very first reply to your post. When your opponent has moved all-in, you close the action, and you hold the nuts, then of course you know perfectly well what to do, which is to call. So the only reason to delay action is to make your opponent think, he might win the hand, when in fact he is 100% sure to lose all his money. THIS is called a slowroll. Not taking your time, when you actually have a decision to make, or even when there are other people left to act. In that case its completely legitimate to take some time with the nuts in order to not give away timing tells.

 

[eberetta1]

I like slow playing at the bubble.

Looks like this discussion has emphasized slow rolling. I am sorry, if I use 5 second delays to decide whether I have a tough hand to go in, a slow roll of a nut hand will make a person think twice down the road if I always slow roll when I have the nuts. This may not help me in an all in situation when opponent goes first, but if I slow roll and force an all in, it will make them think twice about calling my all in in the future.


I am so used to playing online, I am sure the clock online is not even 1/5th the time allowed in a live game. So 5 seconds here and there is barely a time to be complained about being slow rolled in an online tournament.

 

[fundiver199]

I am so used to playing online, I am sure the clock online is not even 1/5th the time allowed in a live game. So 5 seconds here and there is barely a time to be complained about being slow rolled in an online tournament.

Slowrolling is not about the amount of time wasted. Its about making an opponent, who has moved all-in, think, he is likely to win the hand, because you will either fold or call with worse. While in fact he is 100% sure to lose or ay least be in bad shape, because you have the nuts. And while probably less common, this can certainly also be done online. Personally I never do it, because:

a) No need to be a jerk
b) I usually prefer faster action so why waste time
c) Nemesis could be waiting in the form of a disconnection forcing my hand to be folded

 

[Chief talking bull]

I don't think the video is a good example of slow rolling. You really can't slow roll a hand preflop. At that point any hand is beatable, even aces. It's when all the cards are dealt and someone's holding the nuts and the other player has all their chips in and the jerk with the nuts is acting like "Oh gee, I'm not sure if I should call here. i could be beat." and then take their sweet time doing it. It's just a mean thing to do.

 

[rock0001]

slowrolls are not about confusing an opponent because you had already win the hand so for that reason you shouldnt do that. it would be different if villain makes a raise and you take some time to re raise with the nuts because you are acting like you had a weak hand , however a slowroll is a different thing because villain has already made the all in so all you have to do is insta call and win the hand.

 

[DS3]

I don't think the video is a good example of slow rolling. You really can't slow roll a hand preflop. At that point any hand is beatable, even aces. It's when all the cards are dealt and someone's holding the nuts and the other player has all their chips in and the jerk with the nuts is acting like "Oh gee, I'm not sure if I should call here. i could be beat." and then take their sweet time doing it. It's just a mean thing to do.

The video was posted as an example of one player accusing the other of a slow roll when they had not. It was not posted as a 'good example' of a slow role but the opposite.

The second clip was evidently a slow roll as the player had already angle shot a 'mis-click' raise to induce someone to enter the pot with a lesser hand. He then histrionically labored over his decision before turning over pocket kings.

 

[fundiver199]

You really can't slow roll a hand preflop. At that point any hand is beatable, even aces.

If you know 100%, you are going to call, but still make a theater out of it, then the only purpose is to make your opponent think, they are in much better shape, than they actually are. And thats a slowroll, regardless if there are still more cards to come, and even regardless if you dont hold the absolute best possible hand as in the Mikel Habb example.

Its not like, Mikel was worried, he could be against AA, or that Samantha would suck out on him. He got exactly the action, he was trying to induce, and his only reason for tanking and acting was to make her think, she was in much better shape, than she was. Which is pretty much the definition of a slowroll.

Of course there is an element of judgement to this, and this is also why, there cant be any formal penalty for slowrolling, as there is for things like abusive table talk. But for me at least the Mikel Habb example is as clear, as they get. He really made a bad look for himself by acting like this, especially because of the opponent he did it to.

 

[fundiver199]

By the way for me the best televised slowroll ever is this one. Slowrolling is of course bad etiquette, and people were having a cheap laugh at Mikes expense, which was obviously not very nice for him. But with the way, Mike acted, he ended up being the person making a bad look for himself much more than Shaun.

 

[pirateglenn]

This clip is open to wide interpretation and opinion.

My personal feeling is that this was not a intentional or deliberate slow roll, however i do cast some doubt over the language used by Cynn when prior ro calling he deliberates and announces his thought processes by stating, i dont have AK/ I dont have KQ etc etc.
At first i thought, hmm thats somewhat sketchy but he was consistent throughout saying he did not think he could fold.
Commentator feeds the viewing audience with its late but i feel Miles contempt was more because his bluff steal backfired and also when the 8 dropped, i think a part of Miles genuinely thought he was in with a decent chance of winning the whole thing.

Not a slow roll in my view at all - they are playing for life changing/career defining money, its late and Miles made a bad play and got caught with his pants down unfortunately along with no luck on the way the board played out.