Pot Control and Hand Planning (Day 16 Course Discussion)

[Collin Moshman]

That is exactly right Turtle: With many opponents at the flop, you need to be a bit more cautious with made hands, particularly on coordinated flops, since there are more possible players who might have flopped two-pair or better. Draws to very strong hands also become a lot more powerful.

 

[xOneCoolHandx]

Quiz

On the flop I am planning to get in all the bets I can with TPTK....this might change depending on the turn and river.

 

[DoofusBazaar]

Yes, you have a good but non-premium hand and want to limit losses but also make sure that you get action from worse hands. I.e. you can definitely still win the pot, but you know that if you just bet big the whole way, you'll only get called down by better hands.

Interesting idea on it being the opposite of value betting, I like that!

Hey Collin, just watched the day 16 vid, really informative stuff.

Just need some clarity on something! Before the first hand example (Jd5d) you discuss checking top pair back on a fairly dry board to allow others to catch up. But then in the Jd5d example you bet the flop and suggest 3 bets. Why is this? Is it because Ax Kx Qx hands are likely to call? Was a bit confused as you'd just explained why you checked a Kx hand in the flop.


thanks

 

[Collin Moshman]

Thanks Doofus and great question.

With the Jd5d, top pair is normally very strong in a blind-vs-blind spot and our opponent can call with plenty of draws, weaker hands and floats. This includes hands like 93, K4, T7, A2, and 8h6h. So I would be aggressive looking to get value given how strong our hand is and how many worse hands can call at least one bet ... hope that helps!

 

[eberetta1]

Day 16's Topic of Pot Control at the 16:07 mark used the same example of Hero holding 66 with 29929 on the board as Day 9's Topic of Implied odds at the 15:35 mark.

I liked the idea of a river raise as opponent will have a hard time folding to a small raise if they believe there will be a chopped pot.

 

[Marcos1315]

Extremely important topic!!

Quiz answer:
I knew the strength of the hand, but I answer 2 bets (because I thought that would mean I would only bet 2 streets) and check the flop.

Now knowing that the number of bets and the number of streets I would bet are two different things, my answer is 3 bets or more.

And I would bet the flop too. I was thinking about letting them get a free card or making them more likely to call my bets later, but it's dangerous against so many opponents. The probability of some of them getting a card to beat you is high. Kx hits a second pair, a flush draw, a pocket pair hits a set, etc.

I think almost every hand needs some protection on the flop in a pot with so many players.

 

[barbados]

Hm... to say that I am puzzled is to say nothing. I really know in advance how I will act. And even a little bit further. However, I cannot call myself a great poker player. But I am not against such a plot development in my poker career.

 

[mariussica88]

Finished day 16...14 to go

I have a question for you guys on the first example that Collin gave. With J5s there on the river, Collin said that he would check/call......my question is: If opponent bets Pot or push all in would you call?

 

[Oranaro]

Wonderfull, usually I don't plan my turn and river, not thinkg about how much bets should I put in, very instructive thank you, my pre flop was always limited to the flop reading.

 

[BetterThanAvgButNotByMuch]

Day 16: Pot Control and Hand Planning

Stresses the point that your starting hand has a story and you should have an idea before you even enter the pot how the story will develop and turn out before you enter the hand.

Things to consider are position, opponent stack size before you act, and how many bets you should be able to get in on every street and the criteria for folding the hand, all before seeing the flop.

I'm "old school" J5s is a dreadful hand but Ill try to ignore the hand and just enjoy the post flop commentary which I usually like from Collin.

Liked the AA commentary to let the opponent catch up.

I like JTs to see a flop. It can hit a monster and still get away if the betting gets crazy . I'm not folding that for a min raise before the flop.

Really liked the 66 commentary throughout the example from the reason to call to the reason to bet the river was good.

The ebook goes over what the video covers. The K6 example in the ebook gives me a tummy ache but gives warning of how to play the hand and what to do if it doesn't work out but in preplanning I just believe its best to stay away from those hands.

The problem I have with suggesting those type of hands is that beginners and intermediate players is that they will play too many hands that they don't have the experience for and get in over their heads. I really, really don't like those hands and they should be as a last stand, desperation act where you're going to be a 55/45 underdog and thats it. These marginal hands are how the best of the top players mess around with and have a ton of experience playing and can get away from them if the action gets nasty. I cringe watching folks try to emulate that stuff when they're starting out.

Besides the examples, its a good video and gets the preplanning concept of a hand over so that's the most important aspect but the hand selection in the last few lesson examples are killing me. It might be nit picking but . . .

But a good lesson and an important concept to grasp.

 

[Chase]

Start with a plan but be ready to adapt as circumstances change. Limit risk but don't run from it. Hand planning and pot control are essential tools to help get you to your objective.

 

[Atararo14]

Day 16 finished

First of all, I thank Cardschat for this interesting course.

In poker it's necessary to plan a hand in advance, ie to plan the decisions to be taken according to the reactions taken by our adversaries. This of course depends on the profile of each opponent, his stack and his position.

The quiz answer:

We have AK, a very strong hand and we have hit K, it's obvious to raise to value our hand, most of the time we will be called by a weaker hand like weaker K or some 8 suited or flush draws.

I see it's necessary to bet flop, turn and river except if 2 hearts appear in turn and river, it's in this case that it's necessary to check on the river.

 

[dreamer13]

Most often, pot control is used with good, but not the strongest hands. One of the basic principles of playing no-limit poker is that we want to get the biggest possible pot size with the nuts; and vice versa, we don't want to build up the pot a lot, having a weak or medium-strength combination in our hands. Thus, if we only have a pair and the pot is already quite large (eg 80 blinds) - we have good reason to believe that we are already behind. It's unlikely Villain would build the pot to this size with a worse hand than ours. Thus, if we flop top pair, it's best to play pot control against an aggressive opponent. In this case, we play a check-call out of position, and in position we simply call the opponent's bets or check back. This method of play, in addition to keeping the pot size small, allows us to get another advantage - we can provoke our opponent to bluff bets with a weak pair or without a made hand at all.One of the simplest and most fundamental concepts of the game is this: the stronger your hand, the bigger pot you want to play. Obviously with monsters you want to extract as much value as possible.On the other hand, you will often have hands that, although they have showdown value, are not strong enough to fight for a big pot. With these hands, you want to get to showdown cheaply so that on the one hand you get value from the worst hands, and on the other hand, you lose a minimum of money to the best hands.

 

[Eduard0Felipe]

Pot control, a concept that I really like, knowing how to do it, you avoid losing a lot of chips in certain hands, speaking of which Collin, the last hand with AK, you say bet all 3 streets, I disagree in theory, the three bets it depends on the turn and the river, doesn't it? A third heart would not make us so comfortable and I say this not because I saw the cards at the end, but really because of the flush possibility.


16/30.

 

[Jruedrew]

I liked the concept on how checking gives the opponent the opportunity to bluff. I need to give them these chances more often and let them do the betting for me!

 

[azteca6]

mine depends more on the behavior of the other players at the table in a tournament being active in the first hour is crucial. It's important to handle the chips and cards well, although sometimes they leave out fantastic incredible hands and also the clock in the increase of the blinds

 

[Gutshot Gus]

Good lesson! The general principle is that we are playing to have a small pot with a small hand and a large pot with a strong hand.
I think that sometimes I am guilty of making a large bet on the turn if I think I have the best hand. I want to take the hand down right then and there and not give opponents a chance to outdraw me on the turn and river. By sizing the bets I maybe can get more calls and improve my win rate.

 

[Murph1969]

Yes, because villain is going to allow us to do whatever we want. LOL!

 

[Gh0stL]

Hi, day 16 finished.
1. The plan with AK is bet, bet, bet, but depends the turn and river because there have flush probability.

Ty.

 

[Anamembu]

Day 16 completed, becoming a skilled poker player involves thinking strategically, it's crucial to take into account key factors like pot size and effective stacks. This awareness allows you to develop a general strategy to respond to your opponent's actions as the hand unfolds. Adapting to the dynamic nature of poker is essential for success at the tables. Thank you for the lesson!