Pot Control and Hand Planning (Day 16 Course Discussion)

[Katie Dozier]

My experience is people tend to get married to their strong hands early and have trouble pot controlling when they're worried about being outdrawn. For instance on a 89Jhh flop with AdAc some players tend to overbet the pot to try and get rid of draws.

How do you feel about pot control with premium hands on a coordinated flop? Is there risk of being exploited if you pot control when scare cards come out (i.e. a ten or heart comes out on the turn in the example above)?

As you very correctly point out, people often get married to the strength of their hand! We want to continually be reevaluating the strength of our hand so as to not over or understate it's value it. In the flop example you gave, while it of course depends a lot on the action/number of other players, a lot of the time our Aces will have plummeted in value from being a pre-flop premium hand to being one where we're starting to look for a cheaper showdown.

To more directly answer your question, we are not being exploited so long as we made a bet on the flop that accomplishes what we're looking for at that point. There are almost always bad cards for us that could come, and when they fall it doesn't mean we made an error on a previous street.

 

[tagece]

This lesson already helped me in some hands. I'm trying to always think before a action, looking in the table who will probably call, who should fold and if there is a possibility of anyone shove over my bet. I'm now taking a look in all the table before take my decisions and not only on one or two players.

 

[Collin Moshman]

This lesson already helped me in some hands. I'm trying to always think before a action, looking in the table who will probably call, who should fold and if there is a possibility of anyone shove over my bet. I'm now taking a look in all the table before take my decisions and not only on one or two players.

That's great, thinking ahead is a key skill in all poker variations. I'm happy to hear you're applying it well in your games

 

[Coinuss]

I heard about pot control, but I didn't understand how it is possible when you are playing against people who do not know what you want. Now I think pot control is more obvious to me, and planning how many bets I want to place in the pot is the key to pot control. Thanks for the great course.

 

[lollipopas]

Here's a hand from a recent Cardschat freeroll.
I tried planning here, after seeing the flop basically my plan was to bet bet bet, but I made a tiny bet on the flop to give the opponent a good price to stay in the hand.
I figured they could have medium pair or a couple high cards, maybe A with a high card.
In the end of course I was very unlucky and they were drawing to a straight (and I guess my bet on the turn (still smallish), was good considering implied odds)
Should I have checked the river since scary Jack got there, or was it correct to assume I probably still had the best hand (since they called my 4BB preflop bet, they probably didn't have AA, KK (also I had two of those in my hand) or JJ that would've been pretty bad for me. So either they decided to bluff the river, had one pair and thought it was good/bluffed with it, had 99 and made a set on the flop, had KJ or AJ, or (what they actually had) QT and made their straight (but why would they call my strong bet preflop? I guess to outplay me post flop)



Winning Poker, Hold'em No Limit - 100/200 (20 ante) - 8 players
Replay this hand on CardsChat

UTG: 1,975 (10 bb)
UTG+1: 2,509 (13 bb)
MP (Hero): 11,017 (55 bb)
MP+1: 21,671 (108 bb)
CO: 1,350 (7 bb)
BU: 6,817 (34 bb)
SB: 2,780 (14 bb)
BB: 5,130 (26 bb)

Pre-Flop: (460) Hero is MP with K♥ A♣
2 players fold, Hero raises to 800, MP+1 calls 800, 4 players fold

Flop: (2,060) A♦ K♠ 9♣ (2 players)
Hero bets 400, MP+1 calls 400

Turn: (2,860) 5♠ (2 players)
Hero bets 815, MP+1 calls 815

River: (4,490) J♦ (2 players)
Hero bets 3,368, MP+1 raises to 11,788, Hero calls 5,614 (all-in)

Total pot: 22,454

Showdown:
MP+1 shows Q♣ T♥ (a straight, Ten to Ace)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 35%, Flop: 16%, Turn: 9%, River: 100%)

MP (Hero) shows K♥ A♣ (two pair, Aces and Kings)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 65%, Flop: 84%, Turn: 91%, River: 0%)

MP+1 wins 22,454

 

[fundiver199]

My experience is people tend to get married to their strong hands early and have trouble pot controlling when they're worried about being outdrawn. For instance on a 89Jhh flop with AdAc some players tend to overbet the pot to try and get rid of draws.

This is a prime example of entitlement tilt. A lot of people feel, they "must" win the pot, if they have aces. But poker is about long term profit, and on a flop like this there are many better hands than AdAc. AdAc has moved way down in our range, and we need to adjust our expectations and plan accordingly. Another example would be holding JcJh on Js5s2h, but the turn and river brings 4s, 3s. We flopped the nuts, but if Villain wants to put money in the pot on the river, folding is often going to be our best option.

 

[Collin Moshman]

Here's a hand from a recent Cardschat freeroll.
I tried planning here, after seeing the flop basically my plan was to bet bet bet, but I made a tiny bet on the flop to give the opponent a good price to stay in the hand.
I figured they could have medium pair or a couple high cards, maybe A with a high card.
In the end of course I was very unlucky and they were drawing to a straight (and I guess my bet on the turn (still smallish), was good considering implied odds)
Should I have checked the river since scary Jack got there, or was it correct to assume I probably still had the best hand (since they called my 4BB preflop bet, they probably didn't have AA, KK (also I had two of those in my hand) or JJ that would've been pretty bad for me. So either they decided to bluff the river, had one pair and thought it was good/bluffed with it, had 99 and made a set on the flop, had KJ or AJ, or (what they actually had) QT and made their straight (but why would they call my strong bet preflop? I guess to outplay me post flop)



Winning Poker, Hold'em No Limit - 100/200 (20 ante) - 8 players
Replay this hand on CardsChat

UTG: 1,975 (10 bb)
UTG+1: 2,509 (13 bb)
MP (Hero): 11,017 (55 bb)
MP+1: 21,671 (108 bb)
CO: 1,350 (7 bb)
BU: 6,817 (34 bb)
SB: 2,780 (14 bb)
BB: 5,130 (26 bb)

Pre-Flop: (460) Hero is MP with K♥ A♣
2 players fold, Hero raises to 800, MP+1 calls 800, 4 players fold

Flop: (2,060) A♦ K♠ 9♣ (2 players)
Hero bets 400, MP+1 calls 400

Turn: (2,860) 5♠ (2 players)
Hero bets 815, MP+1 calls 815

River: (4,490) J♦ (2 players)
Hero bets 3,368, MP+1 raises to 11,788, Hero calls 5,614 (all-in)

Total pot: 22,454

Showdown:
MP+1 shows Q♣ T♥ (a straight, Ten to Ace)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 35%, Flop: 16%, Turn: 9%, River: 100%)

MP (Hero) shows K♥ A♣ (two pair, Aces and Kings)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 65%, Flop: 84%, Turn: 91%, River: 0%)

MP+1 wins 22,454

Interesting spot!

Pre-Flop: Raise less ($600 max)

Flop and Turn: Bet slightly more, particularly at the turn

River: I would value bet this river too. It's pretty nasty when we get raised. Against a loose or unknown player, I would call it off. Against a tight/passive opponent, we only beat a bluff and won't be facing one often enough so we can bet/fold and get away from this.

But to answer your question in a more succinct way No I usually wouldn't check the river for pot control here, I would bet for value and prevent your opponent from checking back worse hands such as AT.

 

[fundiver199]

Here's a hand from a recent Cardschat freeroll.
I tried planning here, after seeing the flop basically my plan was to bet bet bet, but I made a tiny bet on the flop to give the opponent a good price to stay in the hand.
I figured they could have medium pair or a couple high cards, maybe A with a high card.
In the end of course I was very unlucky and they were drawing to a straight (and I guess my bet on the turn (still smallish), was good considering implied odds)
Should I have checked the river since scary Jack got there, or was it correct to assume I probably still had the best hand (since they called my 4BB preflop bet, they probably didn't have AA, KK (also I had two of those in my hand) or JJ that would've been pretty bad for me. So either they decided to bluff the river, had one pair and thought it was good/bluffed with it, had 99 and made a set on the flop, had KJ or AJ, or (what they actually had) QT and made their straight (but why would they call my strong bet preflop? I guess to outplay me post flop)



Winning Poker, Hold'em No Limit - 100/200 (20 ante) - 8 players
Replay this hand on CardsChat

UTG: 1,975 (10 bb)
UTG+1: 2,509 (13 bb)
MP (Hero): 11,017 (55 bb)
MP+1: 21,671 (108 bb)
CO: 1,350 (7 bb)
BU: 6,817 (34 bb)
SB: 2,780 (14 bb)
BB: 5,130 (26 bb)

Pre-Flop: (460) Hero is MP with K♥ A♣
2 players fold, Hero raises to 800, MP+1 calls 800, 4 players fold

Flop: (2,060) A♦ K♠ 9♣ (2 players)
Hero bets 400, MP+1 calls 400

Turn: (2,860) 5♠ (2 players)
Hero bets 815, MP+1 calls 815

River: (4,490) J♦ (2 players)
Hero bets 3,368, MP+1 raises to 11,788, Hero calls 5,614 (all-in)

Total pot: 22,454

Showdown:
MP+1 shows Q♣ T♥ (a straight, Ten to Ace)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 35%, Flop: 16%, Turn: 9%, River: 100%)

MP (Hero) shows K♥ A♣ (two pair, Aces and Kings)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 65%, Flop: 84%, Turn: 91%, River: 0%)

MP+1 wins 22,454

Your goal with a strong but not unbeatable hand like two pair is to generate the maximum amount of value, and the way to do that is to bet much larger on the flop and turn. You dont need to bet pot or anything crazy, but in a freeroll and against the chip leader, you can certainly bet at least half pot on both flop and turn and still get called by a ton of worse hands.

And its totally ok, if he then fold a gutshot. In fact this is the preferred outcome, because while he would make a mathematical mistake by calling large bets with a gutshot, he has excellent implied odds, when we are as strong as top two pair. As just as this for him can be a legitimate reason to call, it is equally important for us, that we deny him those implied odds.

Your betsizing is literally like begging him to stick around, so he can suck out and own you on the river, and this is a major mistake. Not just in this hand but in general. As played I would also bet-call the river. He can certainly have worse hands like AJ or KJ, which he think, he is raising for value. You are also getting around 3:1, and I certainly think, you are good here more than 25% of the time.

 

[lollipopas]

Interesting spot!

Pre-Flop: Raise less ($600 max)

Flop and Turn: Bet slightly more, particularly at the turn

What would be the reasoning for raising less?
With the flop and turn, yeah, makes sense. He would probably give up at the turn.

 

[fundiver199]

What would be the reasoning for raising less?

Mainly to keep the pot smaller for ICM reasons and to give less incentive for someone to 3-bet or rejam on you. Of course its possible to use staggered bet sizing against players, who dont pay attention or dont care, but against better opponents you dont want to for instance mini-raise your marginal hands and then raise to 7BB, when you have AA, because then you will not get action, when you want it.

 

[Katie Dozier]

Mainly to keep the pot smaller for ICM reasons and to give less incentive for someone to 3-bet or rejam on you. Of course its possible to use staggered bet sizing against players, who dont pay attention or dont care, but against better opponents you dont want to for instance mini-raise your marginal hands and then raise to 7BB, when you have AA, because then you will not get action, when you want it.

Well said, fundiver, and I totally agree with your reasons for raising smaller in this spot!

 

[Edison A]

Pot control is very important, I practice it a lot, a good position on the table helps a lot to take control of the pot, although sometimes it is very difficult to do it against aggressive players and players who bluff a lot

 

[nwhitney118]

On the T7 hand with JTQ9J board, would a thin value bet ever be correct? If villain has checked back two streets it seems unlikely he has a Q or J, would trying to get some calls from A high not be worthwhile? Given he limped pre from UTG it seems possible he has some kind of weak Ax (which he did). Is this simply too narrow of a showdown range to try and get value out of?

 

[fundiver199]

On the T7 hand with JTQ9J board, would a thin value bet ever be correct? If villain has checked back two streets it seems unlikely he has a Q or J, would trying to get some calls from A high not be worthwhile? Given he limped pre from UTG it seems possible he has some kind of weak Ax (which he did). Is this simply too narrow of a showdown range to try and get value out of?

I think, it is to thin. Any K or 8 has a straight on the turn, so Villain can certainly be checking back some hands, that are stronger than T4. These will of course call a river bet before any worse hand will call, and to bet for value we need to be good 50% of the time when called.

 

[Katie Dozier]

I think, it is to thin. Any K or 8 has a straight on the turn, so Villain can certainly be checking back some hands, that are stronger than T4. These will of course call a river bet before any worse hand will call, and to bet for value we need to be good 50% of the time when called.

I agree with Fundiver here

 

[Collin Moshman]

, but against better opponents you dont want to for instance mini-raise your marginal hands and then raise to 7BB, when you have AA, because then you will not get action, when you want it.

Yes, it’s important to remain unpredictable against better players including with pre-flop raise sizing.

 

[Good Man]

Thank you for the lesson. I liked the game with AK, when I have AK often I went ollin without 3 bet. In any case, it is important to get the maximum value. Sometimes it's sad when you put 3 bets and don't get on the Board at all. With this AK often put up against any pairs and lost in ollin. After watching the video, it is now much easier to play this hand. Against any pair, I think it's an overrated hand.




Life is a game , play beautiful

 

[carmenzu]

Controlling the pot has many benefits, including that our opponents will try to bluff more often.
I need to practice this.

 

[Katie Dozier]

Thank you for the lesson. I liked the game with AK, when I have AK often I went ollin without 3 bet. In any case, it is important to get the maximum value. Sometimes it's sad when you put 3 bets and don't get on the Board at all. With this AK often put up against any pairs and lost in ollin. After watching the video, it is now much easier to play this hand. Against any pair, I think it's an overrated hand.




Life is a game , play beautiful

I feel similarly about AK as well at times [emoji4] , we’re glad you found this section helpful, Good Man!

 

[Phyrrura]

It's getting better all the time!

The deeper you goes in this course, more accurate are the lessons and more articulated the concepts. I'm just loving it!

 

[Katie Dozier]

The deeper you goes in this course, more accurate are the lessons and more articulated the concepts. I'm just loving it!

Awww that’s very sweet, we really appreciate hearing that!

 

[karenone]

So try to keep the pot under control. Bet sizing has a lot to do with it.

 

[imnoobpoker]

Thank you for day 16 and all the information you gave us. Planning ahead is very important and I think I can improve this by reviewing a lot of hands and see a lot of youtube movies where they review different hands. Thank you for sharing this.

 

[Katie Dozier]

Thank you for day 16 and all the information you gave us. Planning ahead is very important and I think I can improve this by reviewing a lot of hands and see a lot of youtube movies where they review different hands. Thank you for sharing this.

So glad you found it helpful, thanks!

 

[SeniorTurtle]

quiz question

So, I got the quiz question wrong in regards to how to play AK in a multiway pot. I thought that in a pot that is 5-way, top pair is not as strong as when facing 1-2 opponents. So, I thought that check-raising on the flop might be the best course of action and then betting on the turn if a turn card is not a heart. So, my answer was more along 2 bets, which is clearly too cautious. So, on a related note what types of hands should be played more cautiously when facing 4+ opponents?