Pokerstars encouraging a Limp, rather than Raise or Fold in the SB.

[Operakid]

An article dated dated 1st June 2023, on pokerstars UK web site gave 5 reasons why you should only fold absolute junk in the small blind, and limp with everything else. It later even found a reason to include junk also. They pretty much suggested, with solver approval, that the original 'Raise or Fold' from the SB is outdated and just wrong. It quotes a lack of sophistication to raise or fold, when you should be limping. They don't mention 'rake' anywhere. Limp more!

My question, because I'm an old cynic perhaps... is this beginner advice tainted by their requirement for more proceeds from rake, or is limping from the small blind now in vogue - and I'm behind the times? Also, would more people limping everything in the small blind, as suggested, provide more rake - or am I misunderstanding how rake works?

 

[Shells]

As I read this, I wondered if you had a link to this article?

 

[tagece]

Sometimes I limp in SB, but only when there are two or three limpers before me and I have a speculative hand. In another hands I would fold or raise. But I would like to read this article to understand the reasons they said that.

 

[exer888]

In my experience the hardest part in the game to play is SB vs BB. The catch is that the range is so wild, you have to play really carefull. Example: You should limp fold every suited hand, every Kx,Qx,Jx suited. limp call some traps, and raise all your junk 27o, 210o etc.....Its very mind game on blinds and you need a lot of time to master that part of the game, but at the end is the most important part of the grinding strategy.

 

[Poker_Mike]

An article dated dated 1st June 2023, on Pokerstars UK web site gave 5 reasons why you should only fold absolute junk in the small blind, and limp with everything else. It later even found a reason to include junk also. They pretty much suggested, with solver approval, that the original 'Raise or Fold' from the SB is outdated and just wrong. It quotes a lack of sophistication to raise or fold, when you should be limping. They don't mention 'rake' anywhere. Limp more!

My question, because I'm an old cynic perhaps... is this beginner advice tainted by their requirement for more proceeds from rake, or is limping from the small blind now in vogue - and I'm behind the times? Also, would more people limping everything in the small blind, as suggested, provide more rake - or am I misunderstanding how rake works?

Oh it can be in vogue now - especially with PS players who read that article!

If the SB always limps - then it is always playing post flop out of position.

And - the SB is never giving the BB a reason to fold preflop.

These are reasons why I would raise from the SB.

 

[puzzlefish]

Is this just with SB and BB left in the hand?

 

[TeUnit]

I think with most things in poker it depends.

Sometimes its better to limp stab, sometimes its better to min raise, and sometimes its better to raise 3bb.

It depends on the villan and the icm.

 

[Operakid]

As I read this, I wondered if you had a link to this article?

5 Situations When You Should Consider Limping Instead of Raising

Let’s go through five situations when you should consider limping instead of raising.

www.pokerstars.uk

 

[Operakid]

Is this just with SB and BB left in the hand?

No. It recommends over-limping as well. The focus is on limping instead of raising, but includes limping instead of folding. I'm struggling with that bit.

https://www.pokerstars.uk/poker/lea...u-should-consider-limping-instead-of-raising/

 

[Operakid]

As I read this, I wondered if you had a link to this article?

Hi Shells, Further to my previous response, with the link, I have a question if I may. The focus of the link was on limping instead of raising, but the underlying thread was on limping, including over-limping in multiway pots, instead of folding. My question was based on if this strategy which Pokerstars were claiming is what solvers are telling us, increased rake for the Pokerstars poker room; hence I put it in the Poker Room section. I don't understand why it's been moved to Learning Poker?

 

[jonaselloco]

An article dated dated 1st June 2023, on Pokerstars UK web site gave 5 reasons why you should only fold absolute junk in the small blind, and limp with everything else. It later even found a reason to include junk also. They pretty much suggested, with solver approval, that the original 'Raise or Fold' from the SB is outdated and just wrong. It quotes a lack of sophistication to raise or fold, when you should be limping. They don't mention 'rake' anywhere. Limp more!

My question, because I'm an old cynic perhaps... is this beginner advice tainted by their requirement for more proceeds from rake, or is limping from the small blind now in vogue - and I'm behind the times? Also, would more people limping everything in the small blind, as suggested, provide more rake - or am I misunderstanding how rake works?

Hello brother @Operakid nice to meet you.
My name is Carlos and I am from argentina.
From what I have seen in the Spanish videos that I follow of Elias Gutierrez, better known as "Zerospoker" who is a pro player.
He comments that at all sites, they generally encourage as little preflop play as possible.
Because I understand that in the preflop game, rake is not allowed.
So logically, imagine a table where 9 players limp, and see a flop. Surely you will have no less than 4 players that one will have high pair, the other will also have high pair with a higher kicker, the other will have a straight draw and the other a flush draw. That move will almost certainly have an all-in.
Imagine that the 4 players are at 100BB and they go allin for the different projects they have, they are 400 BB at 7% that any site charges rake in general, they are 28BB that the site stays with in that play.
Assuming that these players entered the same hand with a preflop bet of at least 150BB before, and that the hand would develop in the same way afterwards, the site's all-in entry would be 250BB for 7% 17.5BB.
Likewise, the entry is good in the second example, but logically they especially encourage recreational players, because they are the ones who leave them a lot of currency.
For this reason the strike of Pro players that took place in some sites, firstly because they complain about the rake being too high, because they also spend a lot of their income on Preflop hands, and this is not very convenient for the site where it is played.
Well, this is the explanation that I have received from this Pro player that I told you about.
If any of our colleagues know more about this, I would like them to give information about it.
Greetings brother and good weekend

 

[Shells]

Hi Shells, Further to my previous response, with the link, I have a question if I may. The focus of the link was on limping instead of raising, but the underlying thread was on limping, including over-limping in multiway pots, instead of folding. My question was based on if this strategy which Pokerstars were claiming is what solvers are telling us, increased rake for the Pokerstars poker room; hence I put it in the Poker Room section. I don't understand why it's been moved to Learning Poker?

Hi Operakid - yes, while I was reading your first post, this topic did appear to be more on strategy, even though it did come from PokerStars. So, I moved it to Learning Poker, which is designated for strategy-like threads.

Unfortunately, since I am in Ontario, canada (where we cannot play PokerStars with the rest of the world) I am not able to see the contents of the link. I am genuinely interested in this topic but will have to find another way to get the contents of the link you provided.

 

[Operakid]

Hello brother @Operakid nice to meet you.
My name is Carlos and I am from Argentina.
From what I have seen in the Spanish videos that I follow of Elias Gutierrez, better known as "Zerospoker" who is a pro player.
He comments that at all sites, they generally encourage as little preflop play as possible.
Because I understand that in the preflop game, rake is not allowed.
So logically, imagine a table where 9 players limp, and see a flop. Surely you will have no less than 4 players that one will have high pair, the other will also have high pair with a higher kicker, the other will have a straight draw and the other a flush draw. That move will almost certainly have an all-in.
Imagine that the 4 players are at 100BB and they go allin for the different projects they have, they are 400 BB at 7% that any site charges rake in general, they are 28BB that the site stays with in that play.
Assuming that these players entered the same hand with a preflop bet of at least 150BB before, and that the hand would develop in the same way afterwards, the site's all-in entry would be 250BB for 7% 17.5BB.
Likewise, the entry is good in the second example, but logically they especially encourage recreational players, because they are the ones who leave them a lot of currency.
For this reason the strike of Pro players that took place in some sites, firstly because they complain about the rake being too high, because they also spend a lot of their income on Preflop hands, and this is not very convenient for the site where it is played.
Well, this is the explanation that I have received from this Pro player that I told you about.
If any of our colleagues know more about this, I would like them to give information about it.
Greetings brother and good weekend

Thank you for your response Carlos, and for answering my question. It appears that the article, which was pretending to help beginners, is really about helping Pokerstars achieve their profits at the expense of the beginners. Based on your chap Elias Gutierrez, if Hero raises in the SB, then Villain in the BB might fold pre-flop and Pokerstars get nothing; yet if our Hero limps in, or even over-limps previous limpers, this improves the chances of their being a post-flop game. It looks like my suspicions were correct and this was a really bad misleading article. 'Five' very broad situations were given for limping instead of raising or folding. If any of them had merit, the article should have focussed on that one situation and drilled down into it; as opposed to the lazy cramming of all five into one article so that he didn't have to properly explain any in-depth reasoning behind any of them.

Anyway, thank you again Carlos. I hope you have a great weekend yourself. Very best wishes my friend. (Gary, just outside Sheffield, UK)

 

[Operakid]

Hi Operakid - yes, while I was reading your first post, this topic did appear to be more on strategy, even though it did come from PokerStars. So, I moved it to Learning Poker, which is designated for strategy-like threads.

Unfortunately, since I am in Ontario, Canada (where we cannot play PokerStars with the rest of the world) I am not able to see the contents of the link. I am genuinely interested in this topic but will have to find another way to get the contents of the link you provided.

Hi Shells, One of your members from Argentina answered my question. He quoted a pro poker player who said that these sites want to encourage post-flop play as they don't get any rake for pre-flop play. This article encourages the SB to limp, or overlimp, so that the BB doesn't fold to a raise therefore creating a post-flop game, is really not in its intended readers' interests - it's only in Pokerstars best interest. Not good.

Thank you for your response. Yes the link was about strategy, but my question wasn't. It doesn't matter. If you can't get access to the link, I think it's probably a good thing if you play poker (which I'm sure you do). If any of the five situations (which pretty much covered every scenario) had any merit, the author should have drilled down into it and given Pokerstars' readers the details, as opposed to cramming it all into one post so that there wasn't any room for any justification. Best regards.

 

[Shells]

Hi Shells, One of your members from Argentina answered my question. He quoted a pro poker player who said that these sites want to encourage post-flop play as they don't get any rake for pre-flop play. This article encourages the SB to limp, or overlimp, so that the BB doesn't fold to a raise therefore creating a post-flop game, is really not in its intended readers' interests - it's only in Pokerstars best interest. Not good.

Thank you for your response. Yes the link was about strategy, but my question wasn't. It doesn't matter. If you can't get access to the link, I think it's probably a good thing if you play poker (which I'm sure you do). If any of the five situations (which pretty much covered every scenario) had any merit, the author should have drilled down into it and given Pokerstars' readers the details, as opposed to cramming it all into one post so that there wasn't any room for any justification. Best regards.

Ah, I got it now and thanks.

 

[Risto234]

Pokerstars can say a lot of things - this doesn't mean you have automatically do like told

 

[jonaselloco]

Thank you for your response Carlos, and for answering my question. It appears that the article, which was pretending to help beginners, is really about helping Pokerstars achieve their profits at the expense of the beginners. Based on your chap Elias Gutierrez, if Hero raises in the SB, then Villain in the BB might fold pre-flop and Pokerstars get nothing; yet if our Hero limps in, or even over-limps previous limpers, this improves the chances of their being a post-flop game. It looks like my suspicions were correct and this was a really bad misleading article. 'Five' very broad situations were given for limping instead of raising or folding. If any of them had merit, the article should have focussed on that one situation and drilled down into it; as opposed to the lazy cramming of all five into one article so that he didn't have to properly explain any in-depth reasoning behind any of them.

Anyway, thank you again Carlos. I hope you have a great weekend yourself. Very best wishes my friend. (Gary, just outside Sheffield, UK)

Hi Gary, nice to meet you bro.

I am from Bahia Blanca, 700 km south of Buenos Aires Capital.
30 km from here is the military base in Punta Alta, where the stupid idea of the war in the Malvinas Islands was conceived.
Don't worry about this brother, I remembered it because of your city, it has the same name as a great English ship that our troops sank.
Very sad, many dead people, brothers confronted by an idiocy that still brings pain to all Argentines, and I think that although the English were victorious, they must also bring painful memories for the human losses in this stupid conflict.
Rest in holy peace everyone.
Don't worry, for me the English brothers are my brothers, there are no grudges at all, on the contrary, I have several English friends here, God through you you are one more.

Clarified this, and returning to the matter of the article that you read about the limps. If so, how do I explain it to you?
Look, at a conference a long time ago, Daniel Negreanu was asked why, for example, you always open raise 3-bet with KK for example. Daniel explained it very simply.
He said that the ideal would be to be able to just limp, and hit a K or 4 quads at showdown, even if you had the nuts and would easily win the game.
But the stats say that 1 out of 8 times you hit a set on the flop, and most of the time you raise those hands because you don't want to find people who call you with anything and beat you at showdown. That is why in this way the risks of a strong hand being faced with a very weak hand and that it beats you are reduced.

These poker sites do not live off Pro players. The biggest profit from them is recreational players at all levels.
And a player tells you that many years ago he was recreational, and he wondered why he lost more than he won.
Until I understood and began to study the game, which I'm still studying.

And I can assure you that facing recreational players is not easy. That's why you should know how to play them.
In itself, you have the chance to win, but their advantage is the wallet and that they like every card in their hands.
That's why they always limp when they play, and that's why logically poker sites will try or try to make limp a beneficial game for the players, because in turn it's very beneficial for them.
Something that the semi Pros or Pro players know, that this is not the game of poker.

Anyway, brother, everyone always tries to find their biggest gains hahahaha. What matters is that we analyze where our greatest profit or security is to be able to play.

A hug dear brother from Argentina. And greetings to the family and to the entire city of Sheffield, which I believe, as every English city, must have its charms!!!

 

[jonaselloco]

I read the article Gary.
As @Sheels says, I think the article refers more than anything to the strategy of limping in different positions and talks a lot about KO tournaments, and it's true.
Really with AA and 10 BB, being in UTG you know you're going there, but really not everyone will call you for more than just 10BB.
He talks about a strategy that many players practice. We know this here as "hiding your hands".
It is certainly a dangerous strategy, but it is usually very effective as soon as the showdown is favorable to you. Because let's agree, even if you have AA and go allin, you never know preflop if the showdown will favor you. Although you have ample chances of winning, you also have chances of losing.
Today that strategy can be healthy in some cases. Because in truth, poker has often become very schematic. BN commands, SB 3bet with certain hands, BB don't worry about going allin, UTG opens only with certain hands, and so all positions. Let's say that poker has been made very manual.
But there are certain hands where cunning can be more decisive than the playbook.
I am also not a player who limps too much. For me the Openraise is the normal play.
Then see how the play develops, but I need my hand to at least get some profit. And many times it seems not, but that Openraise in the MTT especially adds a lot of BBs, which you always need afterwards.
Greetings brother and very good posting.

 

[Operakid]

I read the article Gary.
As @Sheels says, I think the article refers more than anything to the strategy of limping in different positions and talks a lot about KO tournaments, and it's true.
Really with AA and 10 BB, being in UTG you know you're going there, but really not everyone will call you for more than just 10BB.
He talks about a strategy that many players practice. We know this here as "hiding your hands".
It is certainly a dangerous strategy, but it is usually very effective as soon as the showdown is favorable to you. Because let's agree, even if you have AA and go allin, you never know preflop if the showdown will favor you. Although you have ample chances of winning, you also have chances of losing.
Today that strategy can be healthy in some cases. Because in truth, poker has often become very schematic. BN commands, SB 3bet with certain hands, BB don't worry about going allin, UTG opens only with certain hands, and so all positions. Let's say that poker has been made very manual.
But there are certain hands where cunning can be more decisive than the playbook.
I am also not a player who limps too much. For me the Openraise is the normal play.
Then see how the play develops, but I need my hand to at least get some profit. And many times it seems not, but that Openraise in the MTT especially adds a lot of BBs, which you always need afterwards.
Greetings brother and very good posting.

Hi Carlos, I admit, I did think about HMS Sheffield, when I penned the word Sheffield. I was in the Coldstream Guards at the time of the conflict, but as you probably know it was the Welsh Guards who Britain sent. Terrible business. There's only one winner in a war, and it's the war itself. Everybody else loses, no matter which side you're on.

There might have been some logic in the article, but because he didn't offer any in-depth analysis, and just broadly claimed we should all start limping, it just stunk to me of lazy reporting. The fact that it was by Pokerstars, rather than an independent professional, I just thought it was wrong to suggest that people change to play in a matter that will bring them more rake. Anyway, you solved the issue and confirmed my suspicions; moreover, you answered my question. I got a few responses, but you were the only one who actually answered my question. Quality.

Thank you also for your kind words my friend. I've had a look around Bahia Blanca on Google maps. It's nice to know I have a friend there. It looks to have lots of history - and it looks warm. In Sheffield it rains - a lot! Which personally, I like - because my allotment is 30 seconds walk from my front door. Best wishes dear chap. Great speaking to you.

 

[jonaselloco]

Hi Carlos, I admit, I did think about HMS Sheffield, when I penned the word Sheffield. I was in the Coldstream Guards at the time of the conflict, but as you probably know it was the Welsh Guards who Britain sent. Terrible business. There's only one winner in a war, and it's the war itself. Everybody else loses, no matter which side you're on.

There might have been some logic in the article, but because he didn't offer any in-depth analysis, and just broadly claimed we should all start limping, it just stunk to me of lazy reporting. The fact that it was by Pokerstars, rather than an independent professional, I just thought it was wrong to suggest that people change to play in a matter that will bring them more rake. Anyway, you solved the issue and confirmed my suspicions; moreover, you answered my question. I got a few responses, but you were the only one who actually answered my question. Quality.

Thank you also for your kind words my friend. I've had a look around Bahia Blanca on Google maps. It's nice to know I have a friend there. It looks to have lots of history - and it looks warm. In Sheffield it rains - a lot! Which personally, I like - because my allotment is 30 seconds walk from my front door. Best wishes dear chap. Great speaking to you.

Thanks Gary dear friend

Yes, as you say, I knew about the Welsh guard but I'll stick with your final statement, terrible business, everyone loses in a war and unfortunately those who lose the most are those who still mourn their loved ones.
The war here was stupid by an alcoholic commander who analyzed the last stage of a disastrous military dictatorial government, which left more than 30,000 missing during the beginning of the dictatorship, it was good to reconquer the Malvinas Islands, as a way to save their skin and that of de facto governments that do not know what democracy is or know what it costs human beings to be free men.
But the worst thing was that they didn't even have the courage to go. England faced a group of young people who had just come out of military training at the age of 18, who barely knew how to use a rifle, and who also went to the Islands devoid of everything.
This commander who, thank God, died, and I hope hell burns him for life, is called Leopoldo Fortunato Galtieri.
And even if it seems like a lie to you, almost the entire town supported this madman.
To end this sad story of brother nations, what annoys me the most is that many compatriots still hate England, they hate the English brothers, because of that history that instead of uniting over time, drives away the brotherhood between nations, that is how sad for me
That way if you have time, I would like to know since you have entered the 2nd world war, how do you get along with the Germans for example. Are they brothers today for you??? Or do they continue the same ridiculousness of those times??? , where another crazy dictator like Adolf Hitler it occurred to him that the world should be his without measuring the consequences.

Thank you for your words in relation to the note you published. I really made the comment because I have been following this player Elias Gutierrez "ZerosPoker" for a long time. First, because he speaks Spanish, and despite the fact that I understand the English language quite well, it is much easier for me to listen to him without translating, since I still lack a lot of vocabulary that I don't know in English.
This 38-year-old boy is now a Spanish Pro player, who began his career at a very young age and today, thanks to his perseverance, study and work, he can make a living from what he likes to do, which is playing poker.
I also started to follow him because he is very aware of what he does, and above all he is very well planted in life.
The video in question where he explains everything is this, see if you can translate it, it is very interesting, also to know in which rooms to play.

Me too when you told me you were from Sheffield I immediately went to wikipedia, and I was seeing a little how beautiful the city you live in.

Sheffield - Wikipedia, la enciclopedia libre

es.wikipedia.org

My brother is also Gay and I am very happy to have a brother up north in a beautiful city in England.
And it's also a pleasure for me to talk to you.

A big hug, and my best wishes for health and blessings for you and your family

 

[Operakid]

Hi Carlos, You say your brother is also gay, I didn't know you were gay. For the record, I'm not. I've still enjoyed chatting with you, and I certainly have no problem with the gay community - but it's not my thing.

Also, I never saw the 2nd World War. I'm not that old. I hated that the British handed over Europe in 2016 to the Germans, but that wasn't there fault, that was our fault. Our country voted for something called Brexit, which removes us from Europe and handed power to the Germans. Sickening. I wanted to stay in Europe. But everyone in the UK who was unhappy with their life voted Brexit.

I'm pretty sure we don't hate Argentina. We read - I know I did, about the awful conditions your soldiers went through. I heard one harrowing story that I'll take to my grave with me. I won't share it with you, but suffice to say if I'd had any anger towards Argentina, this will have removed it.

I must say though, that the two football teams we love to hate, and beat, are germany and Argentina; obviously because of the two wars. And I know Argentina loves to beat us. Fair enough.

Anyway dear chap, it's late in the UK so I'll bid you good night. I've enjoyed chatting with you. Very best wishes, and the next time England play Argentina I'll think about you. Cheers mate. 🍺🍺

 

[DaveE]

Hi Shells, One of your members from Argentina answered my question. He quoted a pro poker player who said that these sites want to encourage post-flop play as they don't get any rake for pre-flop play. This article encourages the SB to limp, or overlimp, so that the BB doesn't fold to a raise therefore creating a post-flop game, is really not in its intended readers' interests - it's only in Pokerstars best interest. Not good.

Thank you for your response. Yes the link was about strategy, but my question wasn't. It doesn't matter. If you can't get access to the link, I think it's probably a good thing if you play poker (which I'm sure you do). If any of the five situations (which pretty much covered every scenario) had any merit, the author should have drilled down into it and given Pokerstars' readers the details, as opposed to cramming it all into one post so that there wasn't any room for any justification. Best regards.

I'm also from Ontario so can't see the article but I think you hit the nail on the head here.

This... " It quotes a lack of sophistication to raise or fold, when you should be limping. "... made me throw up in my mouth.

Hard to believe this used to be my #1 site and they conducted themselves with class.