Limping with AA.

TPC

TPC

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Nov 5, 2008
Total posts
3,766
Chips
0
There are situations where you might be able to get a little more out of AA by limping than you would if you raised. For instance if you had AA UTG and there is an aggressive button or cut off player that raises a lot to punish limpers. Limping with the intent to three bet might not be a bad idea. But it's also risky. Open limping encourages others to limp be hind you. AA doesn't play will in multi-way pots. So if we do limp with AA, we are hoping someone raises to try and take the pot down uncontested, so we can three bet.

If that doesn't happen, we need to play very cautions the rest of the hand. We will be in a multi-way pot out of position and have no clue where we stand in the hand.

Here is an example of trying to get tricky with AA and then overplaying and having it all blow up in your face.

Full Tilt - $0.10 NL - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 3

Hero (BTN): $10.00
SB: $13.91
BB: $14.91
UTG: $11.43
MP: $10.00
CO: $7.86

SB posts SB $0.05, BB posts BB $0.10, MP posts DB $0.10

Pre Flop: (pot: $0.25) Hero has 5:club: 7:diamond:

fold, MP checks, CO calls $0.10, Hero calls $0.10, fold, BB checks

Flop: ($0.45, 4 players) 8:club: 6:spade: 3:spade:
BB checks, MP checks, CO bets $0.45, Hero calls $0.45, fold, fold

Turn: ($1.35, 2 players) 4:heart:
CO checks, Hero bets $1.10, CO raises to $7.31 and is all-in, Hero calls $6.21

River: ($15.97, 2 players) K:club:

Hero shows 5:club: 7:diamond: (Straight, Eight High)
CO shows A:spade: A:club: (One Pair, Aces)
Hero wins $14.91

I had some history with the villain and knew if I hit my straight, he would pay me off. I was also pretty sure he wasn't on a flush draw.

So if you are going to get tricky with AA and try to give your opponents different looks that's fine. However, when your plan back fires, you need to slow down and depending on the board texture, you might need to give up the hand.
 
Last edited:
DawgBones

DawgBones

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 19, 2008
Total posts
2,183
Chips
0
Great example TPC! Never limped with AA but have min raised. Personally don't care to give other players a free look and a chance to improve. Question. If the turn had been :4s4: would you have played it any different? I know you said you didn't put him on a flush draw but would you have thought different if this card showed up?:top: to this thread.
 
Last edited:
tenbob

tenbob

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
May 16, 2005
Total posts
11,221
Awards
1
Chips
20
Yea, nice example for how a micro fish can brutalise a hand. Limp raising AA is almost (hic) always a mistake in a cash game.

In a MTT though, limp raising AA UTG can be an extremly valid play.
 
M

Marginal

Junior Member
Silver Level
Joined
Nov 28, 2009
Total posts
10,426
Awards
3
Chips
2
Is it really a mistake if you are also limp raising air? I know its quite stupid to do so because you are causing yourself so much stress but if your balancing your range it cant be too horrible but then again, no one at the micros is ever balancing there ranges so my point is mute.
 
DawgBones

DawgBones

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 19, 2008
Total posts
2,183
Chips
0
Is it really a mistake if you are also limp raising air? I know its quite stupid to do so because you are causing yourself so much stress but if your balancing your range it cant be too horrible but then again, no one at the micros is ever balancing there ranges so my point is mute.

Perhaps it's the vino but you made me giggle here:D Reads like a "oh never mind" post. But seriously, can you please explain "balancing their ranges". Never heard the term before
 
TPC

TPC

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Nov 5, 2008
Total posts
3,766
Chips
0
Great example TPC! Never limped with AA but have min raised. Personally don't care to give other players a free look and a chance to improve. Question. If the turn had been :4s4: would you have played it any different? I know you said you didn't put him on a flush draw but would you have thought different if this card showed up?:top: to this thread.

Against this villain, no. I knew he would make a huge pot with any pair. He's paid me off when I had AA and he had middle pair. He was a total fish. Against a different player that lead out like that, I might actually raise to try and take the pot down right there. The villain in this hand was a total calling station. So reraising with air wasn't an option.

Yea, nice example for how a micro fish can brutalise a hand. Limp raising AA is almost (hic) always a mistake in a cash game.

In a MTT though, limp raising AA UTG can be an extremly valid play.

Agreed, it's a much better play in tournament situations. However, I've noticed at 10nl anyway, that when you limp three bet a lot of villains don't know what to do, and they will flat out of spite or shove a little lighter than they normally would. Like I said though, this isn't a normal line you would take. Because lots of times it can back fire, just like it did in the example I posted. If it does back fire, you just need to keep the pot small, which is hard to do OOP. So you really don't want to limp raise with AA very often.

Is it really a mistake if you are also limp raising air? I know its quite stupid to do so because you are causing yourself so much stress but if your balancing your range it cant be too horrible but then again, no one at the micros is ever balancing there ranges so my point is mute.

Agreed, we don't need to worry that much about balancing our ranges at 10nl. But you also practice like you play. It might be something you want to dabble in to get your feet wet, but we wouldn't want to make a habit of it or get carried away with it either. When you start to go this route it's very easy to start spewing and creating huge gaping leaks. Not to mention putting yourself in tough marginal decisions which really aren't necessary.
 
TPC

TPC

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Nov 5, 2008
Total posts
3,766
Chips
0
Perhaps it's the vino but you made me giggle here:D Reads like a "oh never mind" post. But seriously, can you please explain "balancing their ranges". Never heard the term before

Basically what we do when we balance our range is we take the same kind of line we would with a monster hand, with a weaker hand. This gives us the opportunity to win pots we normally wouldn't. Also, if we have to slow down and end up showing our weak holding, villain will notice that hey this guy can double barrel or even tipple barrel with nothing. So later when we do have a monster we are more likely to get paid off.

Villain's will remember the times they catch you bluffing, that sticks in their mind, even if you don't bluff that often. So when you do have a monster hand, you are more likely to get paid off.

example: If all you raise UTG with is QQ+, AK after awhile you are pretty predictable. So to balance our range we need to raise UTG with a smaller pair or suited connectors every once in awhile.

I'm sure Marginal will have a way better way of explaining it than I just did.
 
S

sendittoken

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
May 20, 2010
Total posts
32
Chips
0
Limping with aces

Utg, you should not limp with aces; raise at least 3 blinds. If anyone reraises you, then you now that your hand is better than his. another reraise by you will probably take down the pot, unless he has a really big pair: aces, kings, queens. In any event, you narrowed the players in the pot to two, where pocket aces are highly favored to win. You wait many hours for aces, why not play them for as much money preflop as possible!!!Sendittoken.....:)
 
DawgBones

DawgBones

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 19, 2008
Total posts
2,183
Chips
0
Basically what we do when we balance our range is we take the same kind of line we would with a monster hand, with a weaker hand. This gives us the opportunity to win pots we normally wouldn't. Also, if we have to slow down and end up showing our weak holding, villain will notice that hey this guy can double barrel or even tipple barrel with nothing. So later when we do have a monster we are more likely to get paid off.

Villain's will remember the times they catch you bluffing, that sticks in their mind, even if you don't bluff that often. So when you do have a monster hand, you are more likely to get paid off.

example: If all you raise UTG with is QQ+, AK after awhile you are pretty predictable. So to balance our range we need to raise UTG with a smaller pair or suited connectors every once in awhile.

I'm sure Marginal will have a way better way of explaining it than I just did.

Very nice explanation. So does a 3 bet light fall into this category? If it goes to showdown and you win/lose? Oh yeah and how about the squeeze?
 
Last edited:
TPC

TPC

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Nov 5, 2008
Total posts
3,766
Chips
0
yeah, basically we going to do the same things with the bottom of our range that we would do with the top of our range, but just way way way less often.
 
Weregoat

Weregoat

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Nov 18, 2009
Total posts
665
Chips
0
Utg, you should not limp with aces; raise at least 3 blinds. If anyone reraises you, then you now that your hand is better than his. another reraise by you will probably take down the pot, unless he has a really big pair: aces, kings, queens. In any event, you narrowed the players in the pot to two, where pocket aces are highly favored to win. You wait many hours for aces, why not play them for as much money preflop as possible!!!Sendittoken.....:)

You should not limp with them other than rarely. It is an optional play that you can use once you get to know your table and hope to be tricky. It helps if your table has a lot of LAG players who are raising with a high percentage of hands, so you can expect a raise.

While I agree I want to raise with AA preflop, sometimes you'll take down 1.5 BBs, and you might as well be raising with 6-high for that kind of win.

What's important is once we get a villain showing interest in a pot postflop ini a limped pot with AA, we need to understand there are things that beat us, and it's a gigantic hurdle, because as in the example here, our top pair is drawing dead by the turn, and even if we improve to a set on some boards, we'll be drawing slim by the same street against a lot of potential holdings, none of which we have singled out from the list of possibilities.

The last time I tried limping UTG with AA, there was a straddle in the pot, and I expected the straddle to raise with most holdings to punish limpers. The whole table limped, and the straddle checked, 7 players to a flop with AA. Great. Flop was A93, I bet, UTG+1 raised, folded around, I jammed, he called with 33.

Far from ideal, but the last time I did that was months ago and I wouldn't do it very often, maybe once in twenty hands when I think it may be profitable, but you have to be willing to dump your hand should things not go your way.
 
Poker Orifice

Poker Orifice

Fully Tilted
Platinum Level
Joined
Jan 19, 2008
Total posts
25,598
Awards
6
CA
Chips
968
A limp/re-raise from EP is super transparent & 'might' be effective vs. a really fishy/spewy mindless-aggro fishtard but personally I think we're better off raising as we typically would.
 
TPC

TPC

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Nov 5, 2008
Total posts
3,766
Chips
0
A limp/re-raise from EP is super transparent & 'might' be effective vs. a really fishy/spewy mindless-aggro fishtard but personally I think we're better off raising as we typically would.

Not if you are also doing it with the bottom of your range.

I'm actually against limping with AA for the most part. But there is a time and a place for everything is all I'm trying to show. If we decide to take an unconventional route with a hand, and our plan doesn't go as we wanted, we need to be ready to just let it go at times.
 
Weregoat

Weregoat

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Nov 18, 2009
Total posts
665
Chips
0
PO makes a good point. It can be very transparent.

And if you're limp/raising with the bottom of your range... I can't even comment because I've never tried it before.
 
S

Slow Roll Poker

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Nov 16, 2009
Total posts
1,322
Chips
0
Very nice example TPC. I would never limp with AA.
 
Kuberr

Kuberr

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
May 3, 2009
Total posts
97
Chips
0
Unless you know someone is going to raise, I would never limp with AA. It's really not a profitable strategy because you cut down on your win percentage. Over time, you're going to lose more chips than you would gain by limping.
 
dwolfg

dwolfg

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Feb 23, 2007
Total posts
583
Chips
0
PO is correct, but so is OP. Like everything else in poker the specific game situation and your read on your opponents would dictate what is the most positive ev play.
 
Pokerstudent

Pokerstudent

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Mar 17, 2009
Total posts
729
Chips
0
I think what OP was saying (and he did so well) that he does not advocate doing it regularly, but rarely.

I would suggest that if you are going to do it, you should know your opponent first. It works best if the villian have a propensity to raise. If you're just doing it without a strategy, you could get burned pretty bad. Especially if, as the OP indicated, you are not prepared to let it go.

Remember, if it gets limped to the blinds, they can have ANY TWO CARDS. Checked paired flops are pretty scary.
 
S

swingro

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 13, 2010
Total posts
1,634
Chips
0
Never limp with AA unless u are at the button or SB and there are no limpers before u. AA is the best heads-up card but when more than 2 players see the flop it is just a flip coin and u will play like hell for the that mistake. Just the other day i saw a limper with AA loosing all his buy-in to another limper with 72 suited from SB. Flop came K27 offsuit and the AA took the beat of his life. Of course u can double up your stack. But when more than 2 persons see the flop chances are that your 2 aces get busted.
There is also another problem with aces in early position when your image is that of an agressive player and more than one persons call your raise.
 
thepokerkid123

thepokerkid123

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Jul 31, 2009
Total posts
917
Chips
0
Obviously you know a lot about poker, so you suggesting this warrants some thought but limping AA (even if your timing is usually perfect and you do it profitably) seems like asking for trouble. There's no need to get this fancy.

Screwing around with your AA profits can be devestating to a winrate, and any potential gain on this play is so low compared to the high risk involved.
 
Weregoat

Weregoat

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Nov 18, 2009
Total posts
665
Chips
0
Okay, I just thought of a situation where I would limp with pocket Aces, and it has happened to me before, but with QQ instead of AA, so I didn't imediately make the connection. It wasn't until Kuberr said it isn't a good idea unless you KNOW your opponent is going to raise.

So the Bike in LA has a few short buy-in games, and because I was too scared to play the full stack games (which didn't really exist as full stack games yet, but were slightly closer), I played them. They were wild. An 'action table' every time. And with good reason, 1/3 NL with a forced buy-in of $80. See the problem? Good.

So I'm sitting at one of these tables, I've picked up a few pots, and then villain gets shortstacked, tilts, and decides he's going to raise $20 blind every hand. And I'm card dead. I sit there, annoyed as my VPIP goes from ~25% to 0% exactly over about an hour and a half, but that's okay, because I know this guy is going to either go busto and the table won't recover from the dynamic, or I'll get a hand I can call $20 with from my $120 stack...

Folded garbage, garbage, garbage, for ages. Finally I wake up with QQ in MP, villain is the button.

I limp in, he bets $20 blind, of course, as he has every hand for ages. (Mistake coming up, but against a random hand I didn't want to risk a 3-bet causing him to fold when he realized he had garbage, give him a minute to hit something on the flop before he looks at his cards). I call.

Before the flop comes out, he asks me "Do you want to check it down?" And I said "I'm here to play poker, not bingo, play your hand sir."

I check, trying to emulate two overs that missed (even though I'd bet here with AJ+, KQ sometimes), and he bets $60. I raise all-in, he folds.

I would limp have limped with Aces there, too.
 
Misofer

Misofer

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
May 11, 2010
Total posts
162
Chips
0
Honestly I rarely limp aces. Simply put, you're letting a lot of opponents walk-in cheap into the flop without gaining ANY information about their hands. Sometimes you're gonna get lucky and someone is gonna raise you which we can re-raise to make a bigger profit.. but that hand that you posted is a perfect example that limping aces is dangerous.

I believe it also depends on position, when I know I'm facing less opponents and I know they're super-tight I might limp to see if I can get pay off, but again it's a risk. Sometimes you're holding Aces, you raise and they will call you with trash, hitting 2 pair on the flop, projects,etc, that's when you feel sick losing...
 
Dreams of Tragedy

Dreams of Tragedy

dreamsoftragedy.com
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 30, 2009
Total posts
1,573
Chips
0
I never limp in with pocket aces...I don;t care if no body calls. if you just limp in and try to trap people alot of the time you will end up on the wrong side of the coin flip
 
blueskies

blueskies

Legend
Loyaler
Joined
Jan 31, 2009
Total posts
3,643
Awards
9
Chips
304
With AA I would have just called on the turn and reevaluate on the river. Could have been up against a set. But now I never limp with AA unless I know for sure that someone is tilting and shoving every hand behind me, like someone described. The last time I tried to be tricky with AA and limped, I let the BB beat me with 25 offsuit. Since then, I always raise preflop.
 
GCB

GCB

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Jul 3, 2009
Total posts
153
Chips
0
Seems to me the play to get action and eliminate stragglers is to min-raise or come in with a weak raise that you hope someone three-bets. Then you four-bet them and all the world is spinning on its right axis again.
 
Top