EvertonGirl
Professional Fish
Loyaler
AlfieAA
Legend
Silver Level
It was a typo meant to type decent to monsters hands
you can base the strength of your starting hand on the ability of your opponent/s...if you are up against a nit then you will need to have a good hand and if you are against a spewy fish then you can widen your range and outplay them postflop etc....but with nits you can also make lots of steals if they are on your left and theres been no action infront.....do you know about the 'gap concept' sarah?
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tohos
Rock Star
Silver Level
Yea I get where you're coming from. Although I'm not too experienced in HU, I do see these types that are willing to call 2 streets with crappy equity hands and fold river when miss. I consider these guys under a different category under "chasers" although I guess technically they are calling stations too but they are not "hero calling", just chasing that 4 outer.
I guess I was talking more about stations as in those who call with rags, hit a bottom pair and gets married to it no matter what is the board texture. A TRUE STATION NEVER FOLDS! NEVER
. Against these guys the fold equity is so damn low, I find its better to just value bet most of the time and throw in bluffs more often once they start to get the idea. They usually don't believe me if I bet bet them the first few times :/ probably because of my loose image(or its a law for them to never fold to an unknown at first). Board texture just doesn't seem to matter much to these guys from my experience.In early stages of an MTT, I like to get involved with them alot since they're such great pay off wizards and what better time to get paid off than when we're deep stacked. Also the best time to outplay them due to deep stacks.
Later on in an MTT you're usually not deep enough to 3barrel bluff them without the risk of being crippled. Generally not worth the risk unless like the table is full of tough players. I prefer to build my stack mostly through steals and resteals at this stage.
EvertonGirl
Professional Fish
Loyaler
AlfieAA
Legend
Silver Level
Nope, that is something else I have to learn then. Me heads gonna explode soon
haha yeah i still feel abit out of my depth with all the poker info thats out there...you learn and understand 1 thing then theres another one to do...and on and on...you should always be looking to always be learning something new then moving on to the next one...never rest on your lorals lol....
the gap concept is an easy one to understand and you prob already do it without thinking about it and putting a name on it.....but it will help your game if you dont know it...here goes
The term "gap concept," first introduced by renowned poker author David Sklansky, refers to the idea that a player needs a better hand to call a raise than to open the pot themselves.
For example: if it is folded to you in middle position it may be correct to open-raise A♥ J♠; however, if you're facing a raise from a tight player under the gun, A♥ J♠'s value shrinks dramatically.
This is clearly because an early-position player, when he raises, feels that his hand is already better than the rest of the table. After all, his raise has to make it through the entire table, and each player left to act could potentially hold a better hand.
If, however, he raises from late position, he is really only saying "my hand figures to be best against everybody else." Thus an early-position raise holds a lot more weight than a late-position raise because it needs to beat more players.
Which is why when you are facing a raise, you should tighten up substantially. You must have a hand that is stronger than what you would have required to open the pot for a raise yourself.
This is to make up for two things: the lack of initiative you have from calling, and the fact that your opponent is telling you that he thinks his hand is strong enough to beat the field.
If your hand isn't stronger than your normal raising range from that position, you risk "being dominated."
Being dominated means you and your opponent share your biggest card but he has your kicker beaten. For example your opponent has A♥ K♥ and you have A♠ Q♣ - a recipe for disaster.
Playing a dominated hand can be extremely problematic, and this is why the "gap concept" was born. Those times that you do hit your ace you are going to end up spending a lot of money to find out you are second-best at showdown. The gap concept can help save you from many of those.
Chad Batista
Plenty of young guns think the gap concept is antiquated, but the logic remains the same.
What the actual gap is is by no means set in stone. Ultimately, the gap can shrink or grow depending on the player opening the pot and the situation.
If your opponent plays very nitty, then the gap may be very wide. If, however, your opponent is a loose-aggressive player, your gap might be very small or even nonexistent.
Many players feel that "the gap concept" is an antiquated piece of poker strategy, with no real place in today's aggressive games. This is not true.
Although the rule itself has become a bit dated, the logic behind it remains the same. When you call, you want to have a hand that figures to be best now - or has good equity against your opponent's hand.
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DeadlyAim
Enthusiast
Silver Level
I eat calling stations for breakfast.
Wait for a quality hand and preferably and isolation meaning KJ might beat this tools 107 but another player might have AJ.
The only way I lose is something like I got KK v 55 and he gets a suckout or runner-runner flush.
I also call them if there the only ones in the hand and I got a decent hand J10 I call.
Bet 3xbb if u want him to call if u want a fold 10% of his stack will suffice but don't do it as a bluff cause another player might be good. On the flop have discipline, if you hit bet 10% or pot what ever is bigger. Im looking for a fold do this once or twice and he will think twice about calling you.
These are the best people to trap so try playing suited connectors or suited cards and trap with monsters.
Calling stations are money stations... I just call them heads up... every hand bet with good fold with bad and trap/crush with monsters.
Wait for a quality hand and preferably and isolation meaning KJ might beat this tools 107 but another player might have AJ.
The only way I lose is something like I got KK v 55 and he gets a suckout or runner-runner flush.
I also call them if there the only ones in the hand and I got a decent hand J10 I call.
Bet 3xbb if u want him to call if u want a fold 10% of his stack will suffice but don't do it as a bluff cause another player might be good. On the flop have discipline, if you hit bet 10% or pot what ever is bigger. Im looking for a fold do this once or twice and he will think twice about calling you.
These are the best people to trap so try playing suited connectors or suited cards and trap with monsters.
Calling stations are money stations... I just call them heads up... every hand bet with good fold with bad and trap/crush with monsters.
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HUSNG Ryan
Heads Up SNG Specialist
Silver Level
Yea I get where you're coming from. Although I'm not too experienced in HU, I do see these types that are willing to call 2 streets with crappy equity hands and fold river when miss. I consider these guys under a different category under "chasers" although I guess technically they are calling stations too but they are not "hero calling", just chasing that 4 outer.
I guess I was talking more about stations as in those who call with rags, hit a bottom pair and gets married to it no matter what is the board texture. A TRUE STATION NEVER FOLDS! NEVER
I agree with your comments. Guys that call with light showdown value and don't fold on the river should absolutely be thin value bet to death, whereas guys that chase and call light until the river should not only be value bet wide, but should also be bluffing heavily on the river.
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ScottishMatt
Legend
Silver Level
I'm rather confused here. You say that the stations who call light up until the river should be bluffed heavily on that particular street . . . if they are stationing the first two streets, then we should never have a bluff by the river, no?
There may be exceptional circumstances that demand turning our SDV into a bluff, but it's so rare against a fish that I would never advise it. We should simply take our hand to showdown if it isn't good enough to valuebet.
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ScottishMatt
Legend
Silver Level
If they missed their draw what can you expect to get value from?
If you are tripling JT on TcQc5s7dKd against a fish then you are doing it all wrong.
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HUSNG Ryan
Heads Up SNG Specialist
Silver Level
If you know a guy folds a high % on the river with weak hands, and he'll either get to the river with weak hands by calling bets or by checking, then you'll want to bluff a lot on earlier streets as well (you'll be betting a wide value range as well). So basically you're betting all your hands on the flop and turn, and on the river you bet some of your stronger hands for value (in case he hits anything of value) and your bluffs (to push out the majority of his weak range).
You'll be much harder to play against too because you'll be betting so many hands on early streets.
Of course, this is very general advice, a more specific situation might mean a different strategy, there's more to it than this, we're simplifying quite a bit.
Rldetheflop
Head Ranger
Silver Level
well probably not much value but the point is we aren't firing 3 barrels with weak holdings against a calling station so when we do we are betting for value not as a bluff.
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tohos
Rock Star
Silver Level
I agree with ScottishMatt. While we are going to value bet thinner against stations who call down with marginal showdown hands, we don't want to value bet too thin. I usually stick to 2 streets value with TP weak kicker or second pair and 3 streets value with TPGK or better unless I have specific reads.
Also don't be afraid to check your strong hands OOP against draw stations. They will sometimes throw a bluff. They weren't gonna call you anyways, might as well try to get some value by inducing a bluff. I don't recommend bluffing these guys OOP too often. You will get into tough spots when a scare card hit the river and end up having to bet fold or check fold your air.
Also don't be afraid to check your strong hands OOP against draw stations. They will sometimes throw a bluff. They weren't gonna call you anyways, might as well try to get some value by inducing a bluff. I don't recommend bluffing these guys OOP too often. You will get into tough spots when a scare card hit the river and end up having to bet fold or check fold your air.
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ScottishMatt
Legend
Silver Level
This seems like a flawed strategy to me. I'm not very good though so bear with me. With my very fundamental knowledge I don't think that betting the flop as a bluff against a guy who you know is going to station two streets is a solid game plan. By betting the flop as a bluff you are committing to a triple barrel. Like I said I have a very basic approach to the game being a microstakes player so there are no doubt concepts you may employ here that are beyond me. But. I've found the most efficient method to dealing with calling stations is to simply valuebet wider and narrow your bluffing frequency significantly, it's the advice I've always received and it's the advice I always give. Looking at a flop HU against a bad player, I don't think we should say "I have air, lets triple" regardless of his tendencies.
It may be that it is an effective way indeed, but I reckon it's a bit too complex to be given as advice in the learner section - it's certainly more complex than what I do and I consider myself beyond the learner stage.
Quick edit - as an afterthought: Don't get me wrong I think it's good to have a plan. However if that plan involves playing 2 streets very badly as a requirement so that you can play third street well, I have to disagree with it, especially in this section of the forum. Also the "much harder to play against" part is irrelevant IMO. We don't need to balance against bad players at all, we should just exploit, exploit and then exploit some more.
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tohos
Rock Star
Silver Level
Well, for the type of player Ryan is talking about, their leak is that they call 2 streets with crap then fold the river very often. This is important. They are not the same as the calling stations who will call all 3 streets with marginal crap(but has showdown value). For these guys, you are exploiting them by 3 barreling them almost every time. Although generally we do not need to balance against bad players, I still concede a few pots here and there so they would be more willing to believe me when I am 3 barreling them(I prefer to play abit safe by giving them credit for not being totally blind to being 3 barreled every hand).
Them calling 2 streets and folding to the third barrel is the same as if you got 2 streets of value from them(and you don't even need a real hand!). If they are folding to the river bet very often it is profitably for you to do so. They will sometimes turn up your bluff but they will also sometimes pay you off out of frustration when you do have a hand. Then they might start to get afraid of you because playing with you means committing alot of chips and start folding every flop they miss, letting you control the pot every hand. Or they start calling you lighter, then you adjust by value betting more and bluffing less.
It is important to not lump all calling stations under one category. There are important differences in their leaks you can exploit. If you are not comfortable with it yet, its ok to just stick to value betting them. However, I would encourage you to try to identify the types who will call 1/2 streets with air and fold turn/river very often and start exploiting this leak too.
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ScottishMatt
Legend
Silver Level
It's difficult to identify those ones . . . in fact I don't think I've ever gathered a large enough sample on any fish to determine that they play that way. If they do exist then I most certainly will have come across them before, and my plan of valuebetting them seems to do the job. I'll play make decisions against them on a street by street basis dependent on whether I can extract from them. What you seem to be suggesting is that we go on an elaborate scheme that requires us to play 2/3rds of the hand in a -EV manner. I think it's a losing play and that it should be avoided, not be advised to learning members.
Katyushka4
Visionary
Silver Level
Even with the second pair on the flop (a huge plus would be a good kicker), you can play with the opponent, because very often it will try to squeeze you out of the bank its aggression. With weaker hands to get involved in such distribution is not necessary, although it depends on the situation. In general, in a game against an aggressive opponent is important to be attentive to the choice of the hands to enter the game.
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iliass90
Rising Star
Bronze Level
Only when you have AA's and KK's
