Donkey to my left?

[ScottishMatt]

You should always want the fish on your right. It gives you so many liberties and so much information that you can use to utilise profits when you otherwise couldn't do so. You can even use it to punish the better players on your left!

The money gained from having position on the fish should be monumentally more than money lost from having a good player to your left unless you have holes in your game bigger than the poonanny of that one chick who managed to fit a guys head up there.

 

[luchoq10]

Playing a solid game and you can steal the blinds every time

 

[Foldemz]

Jibbers crabst what happened to this thread

Anyways foldemz is right, if there's any regs at the table who understand how to play in position it's vital that you don't end up on their right and this should take precedence over your relative position to the ><((( ' > who will give up their chips anywhere, anyhow.

Exactly.

You should always want the fish on your right. It gives you so many liberties and so much information that you can use to utilise profits when you otherwise couldn't do so. You can even use it to punish the better players on your left!

The money gained from having position on the fish should be monumentally more than money lost from having a good player to your left unless you have holes in your game bigger than the poonanny of that one chick who managed to fit a guys head up there.

I posted a pretty good CC link relating to this subject:
https://www.cardschat.com/forum/cash-games-11/where-sit-relative-player-types-155350/

The most notable player in that thread is Zachvac, he was one of the most valued and successful players on this site back before the fiasco where all of the good players left to go to 2+2. He also min-cashed in the wsop ME this year for 15,000.

fish/maniacs: right > left > across > gone
nits: left > gone/across/right (not sure about order on last 3 just because they're so close to the same, you likely won't be playing pots with them no matter where they are or if they're not there at all)
aggro solid regs: gone > across > right > left

By maniacs I was referring to fish not just extremely aggro good players, so that means they will be making a lot of mistakes. I want to be playing a lot of pots against people who make a lot of mistakes whether they're in or out of position.

Notice where he places the solid regs. Obviously we want them gone, or across the table. But we want them right before we would want them left. Position is just too much of an advantage to want to willingly give these players.


Now if you don't believe him, then maybe you will believe Daniel Negreanu.
Here's his book Holdem Wisdom in PDF format:
http://www.gamblingsystem.biz/books/Negreanu_Holdem_Wisdom.pdf

If you'll scroll to page 101 you'll see it says:

"There is a general rule when picking your seat that you
should always abide by. You want the most difficult players on
your right"
(Difficult players go right)

Then he also mentions fish here:

"If you are playing with a rookie, chances are he's going to
make a lot of mistakes, and you want to be in there when he
does. So by sitting on his left you'll have the opportunity to see
whether or not he enters the pot."
(fish go right)

So who the hell goes left then?

Then he mentions NITS go left here:

"You'll want a tough, aggressive experienced
player sitting on your right. But against a more conservative
experienced player, you'd prefer him on your left rather than
the easily exploitable novice.
(nits go left)

As you can see, it's all really dependent on the player types.

In conclusion:
The players that go on your right - Fish, or competent/difficult opponents.
The players that go on your left - Conservative players/Nits, but we'll take fish over there if our choice is between a fish and a difficult opponent having position on us!

 

[patrik6633]

If you have a player that never folds to your left, you should play for value 90% of the time. other 10% you can try to bluff

 

[DunningKruger]

Again...Nits are ideal, fish or donkeys are fine though.

You have that backwards. Fish are ideal. Nits are fine though.

What isn't fine are any of the good players that may be at the table: ie sharks, pros, regs, and competent players. Which is what I've been saying the entire time....

You are pretty much the only one making this about sharks pros and regs. The posts in this topic talked about nothing of the sort until you joined in, and only then did I bother to say anything to make sure everyone is clear on the fundamental poker axiom that having a fish on your right is an immensely superior situation to having a fish on your left. Your argument to having a fish on your direct left basically amounts to well hey at least it isn't a friggin shark. Well alright then, thanks.

EDIT: Actually, let's just agree to disagree:

I much preferred the original version of your post. Looks like I shouldn't have waited to reply to it. Shame.

-You think fish need to be on your direct right at all times regardless of your surroundings for profit.

What I think is that nowhere in any of my posts did I say what you're telling me I think. What I think is that having the fish to our direct left doesn't necessarily keep the tough professionals we're so afraid of from also being to our left (simply one seat further along), it just means we're almost constantly out of position against the player we're trying to profit from. By gaining direct position on the player playing the most hands, you play many more hands in position overall while you're at the table, and as was noted already in this thread, position is rather important.

-And I think it's of equal or even greater importance to make sure no solid players are to my direct left.

You'd need to be a very weak player to think that, and I don't mean that as an insult I mean that a solid player obv doesn't need to fear getting crushed by another solid player to anywhere near the same degree that he would crush a fish at the table that he has direct position on.

Arguing back and forth really helps no one.
So good luck to you and see you at the tables.

I'm pretty sure I'll never see you at the tables. Heh. Good luck all the same.

 

[DunningKruger]

You should always want the fish on your right. It gives you so many liberties and so much information that you can use to utilise profits when you otherwise couldn't do so. You can even use it to punish the better players on your left!

The money gained from having position on the fish should be monumentally more than money lost from having a good player to your left unless you have holes in your game bigger than the poonanny of that one chick who managed to fit a guys head up there.

Indeed (and well put btw). One one hand it should go without saying but on the other hand it's the Learning Poker sub forum after all and well.. take nothing for granted in this neck of the woods.

 

[Lucothefish]

Its funny because with all this back and forth youll both invariably end up with the fish to your right anyway

 

[DunningKruger]

I posted a pretty good CC link relating to this subject:
https://www.cardschat.com/forum/cash-games-11/where-sit-relative-player-types-155350/

The most notable player in that thread is Zachvac, he was one of the most valued and successful players on this site back before the fiasco where all of the good players left to go to 2+2. He also min-cashed in the WSOP ME this year for 15,000.

Relative to most of you guys I would still consider Zach one of the most valued and successful players on this site (he still posts here btw). I'd give Chuck some credit there as well.

Notice where he places the solid regs. Obviously we want them gone, or across the table. But we want them right before we would want them left.

This is because position gives you an advantage in poker. We'd want anyone on the right before we'd want them on the left. Nits only go on the left because we can't have position on everyone at the table all the time. To be clear, it's not as if playing anyone out of position is going to prove superior to playing them in position lol - especially for fish i.e the topic at hand.

You noticed where he placed the fish right? To our right first and foremost. Superior to being on our left and to anywhere else (in other worse, exactly what I've been telling you). According to what you've dug up for us, a fish being on our right is the absolute best option and for aggro solid regs being on our right is the 3rd best option.

Position is just too much of an advantage to want to willingly give these players.

It's too much of an advantage to not want to willingly give yourself.

Now if you don't believe him, then maybe you will believe Daniel Negreanu.

Oh I believe him. There are several cases where I've disagreed with Zach but a simple concept such as this is not one of them. Likewise, your quotes from Holdem Wisdom (which is funny for reasons I can't be bothered to explain) don't help your cause in any way either. Fish are listed as one of the player types that should go on your right, and not mentioned at all as one of the types to put on your left (you added that part in on your own). I doubt you will ever find a single player who isn't the poker equivalent of the Cleveland Browns to vouch with a straight face that a fish would be better off on your left than on your right.

 

[DunningKruger]

Anyways foldemz is right, if there's any regs at the table who understand how to play in position it's vital that you don't end up on their right and this should take precedence over your relative position to the ><((( ' > who will give up their chips anywhere, anyhow.

Fish don't just give up their chips anywhere, anyhow. It's not random, and it's not like each of the other players at the table have an equal probability of stacking said fish. To think otherwise would be foolish. You'd have to severely underestimate the importance of playing poker in position to willingly give it up against any loose player really but especially a fish. I mean come on. You can have the option (and first chance) to iso raise the fish every time they enter the pot, or... you can deliberately place yourself out of position and when you get a hand you might want to play you don't have any idea of whether the fish will fold his cards. You end up in pots with regs more often instead of your target, and you're out of position more often. Suddenly it's the other regs isoing the fish instead and making squeezes or calling behind and playing pots with you. I assure you this is not preferable.