Do you ever fold AA pre-flop?

[ObbleeXY]

You sound like a really nice bloke. How about you stop being a ****** and try to help? I'd knock 7 bells out of you in person, so next time think before replying. You're the cancer of the community.

Dude, you are clearly new to the community. We get that you didn't like Fundiver's comments, but threatening and insulting behaviour doesn't get you very far here. And given your noob status, nobody is going to fight very hard for you to be given the benefit of the doubt. (I agree though, FunDiver's reply was not particularly helpful and was critical without much substance.)

There is no single correct answer here.
However, my view is that you should raise AA pre-flop to a level that means you are unlikely to get called by many.

Now, I'm not saying that you should bet according to hand strength. All my pre-flop opening bets are designed to limit the pot contenders. Sometimes that works with a 2.2BB bet. Other times it needs a 4.5BB opening bet. (It also varies according to position).

If you're playing a freeroll, I'd just shove it pre and wait for the 772 flop to hit and give a boat to the BB.

If you're late position, healthy re-raise with AA is needed here. You need to punish limpers. Allowing limping to continue will lead to far too many multiway posts. Stamp it out early and regularly.

But if you do find yourself in a situation where there are too many people in the pot, you need to look at stack sizes. Remember, you do not always need to beat everyone to profit from a multiway pot. Many times, particularly in late game, you can afford to lose the hand to the short stack as long as you win against the bigger stack in the hand.

Suppose:
Villain 1 has AA on 15BB
Villain 2 has QQ on 75BB
and Hero is sitting with KK at 45BB.

If none of you hit, but all shoved, V1 wins a pot of 45BB (+blinds/antes).
You will have lost 15BB to Villain1, however, you would WIN 30 chips from Villain 2.
So it is important to note that coming in second can still be very profitable multiway.

However, if you are short stacked, multiway pots become debilitating and should be avoided.

Finally, when it comes to folded hands. Fold and forget. Live to fight another day. I have folded pocket pairs, AKs, AQs, etc. in situations around the bubble or around a ladder up. I would LIKE to fold more...but find it quite tricky. A hand folded preflop loses very few chips.

Of course, the gain in a multiway is potentially greater, however the reality is that the flop, turn, and river bets tend to see a bit less/lower action compared to heads up.

Bottom line -- there is no single correct answer, and it does depend on the game being played and the players at the table. It isn't wrong to fold in certain situations, but generally speaking AA is worth seeing the flop if you can afford it, and is better served by healthy pre-flop raise (if people will fold out because of a raise).

At the end of the day, if you are not prepared to bet with AA, what exactly are you prepared to play?

Cheers,
ObbleeXY

 

[screamingmidget]

Good stats.
It highlights why you want to get away from multiway pots.
Normally, AA vs something like AKo is nearly a 92% favourite.
92% (heads up) vs 42% (multiway)
Those are pretty stark differences in odds.

So limp them from early position f you want, but I'd rather have everyone fold and I take the blinds than have a multiway and risk losing the whole stack.

Cheers,
ObbleeXY

Afternoon Obblee... to be fair you did back me up immediately after saying nobody would back me up. I understand... newbie and people are thinking 'nah', but that reply from the other poster was shocking. Apologies for the reply, but I think it was understandable. but he would never have said that to me in person. But.... we carry on and thank you for the advice.

The rest of what you put - taken on board and appreciated.

 

[srurrr]

NO.it's because AA is very strong hands and other 6 people have necessarily strong hands and if you win this pot, you will get
high return. and poker is gambling.

 

[fundiver199]

Just for messing around, I put a specific holding for each player into Equilab. I didn't do AA versus 5 random players because it would take too long to evaluate. Here is one situation I picked:

AdAh - 42.73% (Our debated AA)
KsKc - 11.11% (Solid pocket pair usually worth shoving and just a cooler vs AA)
AcKh - 3.98% (AK is a premium hand preflop, but not so great to commit too many chips with and especially against AA or KK that dominates it as the case here)
2d2h - 16.65% (just picked a lower pocket pair)
9s8c - 16.13% (picked connected cards far enough from the Broadway cards that it has some chances to outdraw them and win)
Td4c - 9.40% (Just picked a trash hand to see how it would compare)

Phoenix Wright already did an equity example above. This was a 7-way spot rather than 6-way, so lets just be conservative and say, AA has 35% equity. In that case we end up on average with 2,45 x our stack, if we call, assuming they all have us covered. If by comparison we call with 72o, we will have around 5% equity and end up with 0,35 x our stack on average. So in pure chip EV folding AA is more than twice as big a mistake as calling with 72o. Thats how bad it really is.

Sure we need to take ICM into account, but unless this was on a final table, where we were the short stack, or near the bubble of a satellite, ICM is never important enough to give up on a spot, where we stand to increase our stack 145% on average. And in reality we will never see 6 people randomly punt their stack away in these situations. This is mostly something, that happen in play money games or early in a freeroll.

 

[MAGICUZ]

I've never folded an AA before the flop,whatever the stake, I will never do it. And remember, poker lover, never limp an AA bet hoping to lure.Basically it always ends up bad and it looks stupid

 

[screamingmidget]

I've never folded an AA before the flop,whatever the stake, I will never do it. And remember, poker lover, never limp an AA bet hoping to lure.Basically it always ends up bad and it looks stupid

A lot of people came in, so my point was AA vs like 7 people all-in isn't going to win.

 

[valanddon]

I will never fold pocket AA's pre-flop and would go all in if called for.

 

[Richardszabo]

First of all, you can’t know for sure that someone will be lucky against you! If the situation is cash game, it is not recommended to throw, if it’s a tournament, I can imagine a situation where it’s better to throw. I don’t remember, but I’ve thrown a premium hand already, with a high stack of bubbles.

 

[zeist2]

Yes, today. A very little stack just before the money. Was a good guess, i came into the money without playing last few hands even with a AA.

 

[Statsman1]

When you don't fold AA preflop, you only know you are not behind. After the flop, your chances of being behind go up. So if you somehow feel that you are going to lose, might as well fold it preflop. Nobody ever busted out of a tournament by folding.

I personally don't think I could fold AA preflop against one or two shoves...but against 5 others, and the cash bubble staring me in the face, I might. Why risk a suck-out destroying your cash possibilities?

 

[Debi]

Was this a tournament, satellite, sng or cash game?

 

[SPYDER1998]

I'll fold ACES if the other 8 players goes ALL-IN. LOL

 

[DIMARIK]

Never dropped aces.
Yes, sometimes I get run over, but more often I still win with aces.
Not playing aces is probably stupid.

 

[fundiver199]

Why risk a suck-out destroying your cash possibilities?

Because we dont play MTTs to min-cash. Depending on the field size the winner will take home 10, 100 or even more min-cashes and the next places a bit less. And we need to give ourselfes the best possible chance of winning these big prices, even if it means a few less min-cashes.

The funny thing is, a lot of people stare themselfes blind on guarantied price pools and first price money, and then they buy into a 1.000+ player MTT, because they can turn their 5,5$ into 1.000$. But as soon as the bubble approaches, they have completely forgotten, why they bought in in the first place, and are now overly obsessed with getting their money back by min-cashing for 10$.

 

[toni_brasco]

Well said, I am always like that- instead of playing brave and reasonable, bet or call with good hands I am obsessed to finish in the money so playing sick carefully on the bubble, then some guys going all in few times in a row and building their stack with blinds, don't mention the chip leaders, squeezing every hand...i am just folding, folding, folding like a lamb.

 

[fundiver199]

Well said, I am always like that- instead of playing brave and reasonable, bet or call with good hands I am obsessed to finish in the money so playing sick carefully on the bubble, then some guys going all in few times in a row and building their stack with blinds, don't mention the chip leaders, squeezing every hand...i am just folding, folding, folding like a lamb.

We are actually supposed to be a bit conservative near the bubble, especially when it comes to calling jams from other players, who have us covered or can diminish our stack in a detrimental way. But being "a bit conservative" does not involve folding AA preflop and also not KK in any sort of scenario, that will commonly happen. When it comes to QQ and worse, we can sometimes find a fold, if there is crazy multiway action ahead of us.

 

[Statsman1]

We are actually supposed to be a bit conservative near the bubble, especially when it comes to calling jams from other players, who have us covered or can diminish our stack in a detrimental way. But being "a bit conservative" does not involve folding AA preflop and also not KK in any sort of scenario, that will commonly happen. When it comes to QQ and worse, we can sometimes find a fold, if there is crazy multiway action ahead of us.

Hey, fundiver199, I agree with you 100%. In the example the OP used, he faced 6 other shoves, so while he individually had the best chance to win, the odds of him winning against anyone else became less than 50%, and as such, maybe folding was a good play, in that exact situation.

I am not saying at all that you SHOULD fold AA every time in those situations, only that you simply want to feel good about your chances going into the flop, especially near money bubble, and while AA is the best you can ask for, preflop, perhaps against 6 other shoves, maybe you don’t feel so good about it. No matter what the situation is.

The fact that it happens on or near the bubble doesn’t change the math, the AA is still what the AA is, and you should make the right decisions for yourself all the time. I think it would be very very difficult to fold AA at any point in a tournament, preflop, no matter what.

To be fair, the OPs error wasn’t the fold against the 6 shoves, it was the lack of preflop raise in that situation.

 

[AllOut]

Is it a play money game? I've never experienced this situation where 6 players shove preflop and we dealt aces but depends on other factors, I might probably fold it too. After all it's just a pair unless we hit set which is unlikely too since 6 players shoves, there's high chance of them dealt various A-x hands too. KKs or QQs are another hands oponnents probably have which blocks our way to the straights too. So I don't see it's an easy call at all, we may lose to various random hands. Certainly it's a big risk, even if it's in the tournament it might be reasonable fold.

 

[Leeyonah96]

I never folded AA preflop ever in my life.

 

[mkdrummey]

I can think of a couple of reasons why I would fold. In a satellite with a good stack where all prizes are the same it would be stupid to get involved close to the bubble. Likewise if I find myself at the bubble with only a few bigs left and can survive an orbit or 2 I would probably fold because all in is not going to push anyone off and your chances get worse the more players you're up against. I don't mind going out early but don't want to play 2-3 hours and get nothing.

So yes I have folded AA preflop and would do it again based on circumstances.

 

[perrypip]

So who is right?

Against 6 'all-ins' after my check, why should I be calling?

What are the odds of me actually winning?

Your odds of winning with AA against 6 players are 42.6% and you're getting 6 to 1 on your money. You should have called.

 

[perrywh]

Final table live 5 players remain and everyone is all in except me and I’m chip leader and I folded AA! I would have lost and been short stack but went on to win the tournament!

 

[fundiver199]

Hey, fundiver199, I agree with you 100%. In the example the OP used, he faced 6 other shoves, so while he individually had the best chance to win, the odds of him winning against anyone else became less than 50%, and as such, maybe folding was a good play, in that exact situation.

When we determine, if we should call a jam, we dont only look at our equity, we also look at our pot odds, and in a 7-way pot these are obviously absolutely fantastic. AA has at least 35% equity against 6 opponents, so on average he would increase his stack by at least 150% by making the call. This is as large an edge, as we will ever find in poker, and we cannot afford to give up on it, just because we dont like variance

 

[fundiver199]

Final table live 5 players remain and everyone is all in except me and I’m chip leader and I folded AA! I would have lost and been short stack but went on to win the tournament!

But you would likely have had a higher chance of winning the tournament, if you had made the call. So you were just lucky, that your mistake did not get punished

 

[sturbs87]

nope

if i have AA pre flop and people aren't going all in, i'm definetly going to see the flop. If there's multiple all ins and I want to keep going in the tourney, i'll sit it out.