Defending the Big Blind (Day 26 Course Discussion)

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Tux97

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Glad to hear that!

An overlay in this context means extra money in the pot improving your odds. It can occur on any betting round.

Pot size definitely impacts fold equity. Higher pot size usually lessens your fold equity but also improves the potential reward. When we say "good fold equity," we usually mean relative to this reward, i.e. there's a good risk-reward ratio.

With A8s, could you elaborate on this question? It's a strong hand for 25bb BB-vs-button, which is why we're happy to play it with a call or 3-bet. Happy to talk more about this hand so just let me know, thanks!

Thanks a lot for explaining this! About the A8s, I meant why should we not like a min-raise 3-bet and then have to call or fold facing a shove? I know we should be aggressive and always try to take the initiative but is this the only reason why a min-raise is a worse move?
 
Collin Moshman

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I see what you're saying! Right a smaller 3-bet.

Generally we don't want to have a min 3-bet range, particularly out of position, because we're just building up a pot when our opponent has a positional disadvantage. Here it's close in terms of stack size. If we were deeper with the button, then it would make more sense to have a small 3-bet range. At this stack I would usually call or jam hands I played, but it would be very reasonable to have a range for 3-betting small too.

One thing though about small 3-bets. You want to know your plan facing 4-bet. If we reraise here and our opponent shoves, what do we do? If it would be a very close decision where you're not particularly happy with either option, it's usually better to just call.
 
zam220

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The big blind must be protected, but the main thing to understand is against which player and against which position!
 
zwbb

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BB position is unique in the first place because we are forced to invest 1bb into the bank without viewing our pocket cards. If you look at this through the prism of mathematics of poker, we find that in view of this feature of the BB position, we get a better price to call against opening than if we were in any other position. In addition, on BB we will always be the last to act preflop, which in turn means that when playing through a call at this position, we can always see the flop.
 
johnnylawford

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It would be nice to see something added to this chapter about how light and when to raise a small blind limp. If you have an opp who limps 80% or more of his range in a full ring MTT at what point would we start raising/jamming on his limps?

This is also the first time I noticed you put two section headers on the same line (top of page 131). Was that to save space, or just because both points were related to the example on page 130?
 
deyvsonflp

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Even though it is the position that loses the most chips, defending it is essential. Especially in the final stages. The suit and connector hands are very strong in this position.
 
Collin Moshman

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It would be nice to see something added to this chapter about how light and when to raise a small blind limp. If you have an opp who limps 80% or more of his range in a full ring MTT at what point would we start raising/jamming on his limps?

This is also the first time I noticed you put two section headers on the same line (top of page 131). Was that to save space, or just because both points were related to the example on page 130?


The CardsChat team did an awesome job formatting the book, I think they probably put the two there just because there was space with both of those being shorter sections.

Good question on raising SB limps and you're right we should talk about this more in the future. Tend to raise recreational/predictable players more than regs since they are less likely to be balanced or take lines such as limp/3bet.

Some stack sizes are also much more suited to attacking limps.

At 15-20bb or less with an ante, you have a good risk/reward ratio to jam over limps and should do this a lot except against tricky players.

At 50bb and higher, you should raise a lot to play a larger pot in position with deep stacks.

And you're right of course about open-limp percent. OL in SB is a nice stat although it takes a larger sample to converge so you pretty much need some history to use it. Otherwise you can use general VPIP/PFR stats to get an idea. E.g. a player who's 80/20 is probably just limping a very wide range because he didn't come to fold!
 
davidsincara

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I'm going to read this, because on of my main flaws are not defending enough in SB/BB and fold not sure if the opener has a stronger hand or just explotating this PF fold
 
tagece

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This lesson was very useful for me, and I pretend to watch it again soon. I have to admite that this is one of my worst leaks. I will definitively make some adjustments in my game.
 
Katie Dozier

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This lesson was very useful for me, and I pretend to watch it again soon. I have to admite that this is one of my worst leaks. I will definitively make some adjustments in my game.
That's great that you've identified an area of your game that needs improvement--best of luck making the adjustment and just let us know if you have any questions along the way :)
 
lollipopas

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Great lesson. I realized I might be too conservative playing in the BB and not taking into account other players' ranges.
 
barbados

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You only need to defend yourself if you are confident in your cards. If there is no confidence, then the chances of losing even more increase.
 
carmenzu

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This lesson I really needed.
Thank you very much.
 
okeedokalee

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Stealing, rather than defending blinds is more useful for me.
You have weak players in the blinds, hammer them.
Too many of my blind defends, turn into a race.
 
gambit1983

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Not really a fan of defending the big blind. If you feel the guy is strong you should just probably fold.
 
Collin Moshman

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Not really a fan of defending the big blind. If you feel the guy is strong you should just probably fold.


I have to respectfully disagree Gambit :)

It's common to be getting 4:1 odds or better when someone raises on your big blind, and sometimes you have position post-flop. I believe it's a leak to fold too many hands in situations like this.
 
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It's common to be getting 4:1 odds or better when someone raises on your big blind, and sometimes you have position post-flop. I believe it's a leak to fold too many hands in situations like this.


Completely agree with this. While I am never excited about defending my big blind with some junky hand, its something, we have to do. A lot of good regulars are opening a ton of hands these days, even from early position, and they are using very small sizing. And for this reason we cant afford to just let them pick up the blinds and antes uncontested all the time. We can look to widen our 3-betting range and defend that way, but there are many hands, that can not profitably be 3-bet, but they can profitably be called against a small 2,0-2,5BB open.
 
Good Man

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During the game, I try to remember that both the big and small blinds are the worst positions at the table. After the flop action always starts with the small blind. In this situation, the difference with the big blind is insignificant. You can say that even the best poker pros lose money in this position. One of the most common mistakes at the beginning of my poker game is that the frequency of calling from both blinds is too high. First, you need to understand that the blind is not an investment that automatically binds you to the pot. In fact, any blind increases the pot's chances, but not to the extent that you can enter any raise with any two cards. The ability to build an effective defense means having an individual approach to the specific situation and the players at the table.
The key to understanding when it is most profitable to start fighting for the blinds is the position. The closer the preflop raises come to the button, the wider their ranges. That's why I'm where the next raise came from. Then you should act according to the circumstances: fold your hand, raise or call. The earlier the player's actions are on the preflop, the tighter I play. In turn, if the openraise came only from the button, I think it would be more logical to expand your own range and at the same time put on a wide range of this player. During decision-making about the protection, I also forget about the style of operater.
If my opponent is playing a tight game, he will not enter the pot even with a loaf, unlike less traditionally minded players. I keep track of my opponents, remember what positions they had and what hands they raised. This will help me make the correct adjustment to the protection range.




Life is a game , play beautiful
 
Debi

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During the game, I try to remember that both the big and small blinds are the worst positions at the table. After the flop action always starts with the small blind. In this situation, the difference with the big blind is insignificant. You can say that even the best poker pros lose money in this position. One of the most common mistakes at the beginning of my poker game is that the frequency of calling from both blinds is too high. First, you need to understand that the blind is not an investment that automatically binds you to the pot. In fact, any blind increases the pot's chances, but not to the extent that you can enter any raise with any two cards. The ability to build an effective defense means having an individual approach to the specific situation and the players at the table.
The key to understanding when it is most profitable to start fighting for the blinds is the position. The closer the preflop raises come to the button, the wider their ranges. That's why I'm where the next raise came from. Then you should act according to the circumstances: fold your hand, raise or call. The earlier the player's actions are on the preflop, the tighter I play. In turn, if the openraise came only from the button, I think it would be more logical to expand your own range and at the same time put on a wide range of this player. During decision-making about the protection, I also forget about the style of operater.
If my opponent is playing a tight game, he will not enter the pot even with a loaf, unlike less traditionally minded players. I keep track of my opponents, remember what positions they had and what hands they raised. This will help me make the correct adjustment to the protection range.

Life is a game , play beautiful

Nice post - I missed this when you made it.
 
Pichman189

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defending BB

That's great that you've identified an area of your game that needs improvement--best of luck making the adjustment and just let us know if you have any questions along the way :)


Hello!
Yesterday I lose my Big fish game, I was as maniac when defend my big blind.I play without stats and software and from small blind wath raise 3bb, 3600 (pot 6000) i reraise (restill u think yesterday) to all in 58000 chips and he call. I know it was mistake,I hoped he fold, and I only protect my BB with 9 7. He had QQ. So I lose Big fish on 888poker (16.5$) They not bluff on this tourney? restill with 9 7 on BB is big mistake? tell me pls) Thank you!! :)
 
funnyhook3

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I don’t know about you, but if I have a bad hand I don’t defend BB and SB
 
Katie Dozier

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Hello!
Yesterday I lose my Big fish game, I was as maniac when defend my big blind.I play without stats and software and from small blind wath raise 3bb, 3600 (pot 6000) i reraise (restill u think yesterday) to all in 58000 chips and he call. I know it was mistake,I hoped he fold, and I only protect my BB with 9 7. He had QQ. So I lose Big fish on 888poker (16.5$) They not bluff on this tourney? restill with 9 7 on BB is big mistake? tell me pls) Thank you!! :)


Yes, I would recommend folding there with the 97. It would require that your opponent would have to have a major raise/gold leak in order to make that shove profitable (ie that he was raising extremely wide but calling the shove very tight). Of course some of the time your play will work out here (when your opponent doesn’t have such a good hand). Either way, we want to focus on what’s profitable in the long term.

It’s great to look for spots to shove over raises in situations where an aggressive player opens in the small blind and we’re around 20 blinds deep. I admire the aggressive spirit of your shove! [emoji4]
 
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We can't let them take that from us so easy, if you keep very tight on defending your big blinds, you're gonna have a lot of bad times.

That's just not profitable!
 
Pichman189

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Yes, I would recommend folding there with the 97. It would require that your opponent would have to have a major raise/gold leak in order to make that shove profitable (ie that he was raising extremely wide but calling the shove very tight). Of course some of the time your play will work out here (when your opponent doesn’t have such a good hand). Either way, we want to focus on what’s profitable in the long term.

It’s great to look for spots to shove over raises in situations where an aggressive player opens in the small blind and we’re around 20 blinds deep. I admire the aggressive spirit of your shove! [emoji4]

I have to respectfully disagree Gambit :)

It's common to be getting 4:1 odds or better when someone raises on your big blind, and sometimes you have position post-flop. I believe it's a leak to fold too many hands in situations like this.


Sometimes I hate to give up the big blind, and I feel like my opponent from Button position is constantly 3-betting. I 4bet or all-in by default. Am I doing the right thing if my opponent is such an aggressor and stealer?
 
Collin Moshman

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Keep in mind that the button (if I understand the question correctly) would be raising. This is technically a 2-bet even though not many call it this :D Then we could 3-bet from the big blind and he would 4-bet us if he raised it again.

So yes, we should definitely 3-bet more against a wide-raising button who is frequently trying to take our blinds!
 
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