Is the cutoff the new button?

[Dobbler1]

Is it just me, or does it seem like some players that otherwise have pretty well constructed ranges open pretty wide from the cutoff? I mean opening with hands like A7o or Q8o. I mean, I expect a certain type of player to open from any position with these sorts of hands, but not someone who otherwise seems to be a solid player. Is it just me, or is this a thing now?

 

[Debi]

it is probably not the new button as much as players eventually discovering it is almost as good as the button.

 

[Andyreas]

I don't think opening A7o from CO is exactly super wide. It's even part of the recommendation in the CC poker course.

But yes, I think some players tend to play pretty aggressively against BN raises, maybe some players adapt and open their ranges on CO a little. 🙂

 

[Sopt]

CO and button are the most profitable positions in poker, so naturally the range of playable cards there is wider. And if you think about it logically... you are in the CO, there is only button that has position over you. While you're raising yourself, you narrow the range the button will have to raise or call themselves. So it's only natural that game is evolving in that direction.
I'd predict that in the future things will get even more loose, until we hit the breaking point where those "more daring" players will start losing more than winning. Then the meta will very slowly shift back into more tight direction. Same happens not just in poker, but other games with concept of risk vs reward.
So in short, people must have realized that it's widening the range on CO in profitable at this moment, so they are doing it.

 

[Dobbler1]

I don't think opening A7o from CO is exactly super wide. It's even part of the recommendation in the CC poker course.

That's more of a border example. I guess it depends on stack sizes and if it's tourney or cash, but most charts I've seen fold A7o preflop. I mean honestly I wouldn't think someone is a moron for opening with it, but I don't think a solver would call it optimal (maybe I'm wrong, haven't tried it). Guess if the blinds were over-folding then it makes sense.

 

[Dobbler1]

CO and button are the most profitable positions in poker, so naturally the range of playable cards there is wider. And if you think about it logically... you are in the CO, there is only button that has position over you. While you're raising yourself, you narrow the range the button will have to raise or call themselves. So it's only natural that game is evolving in that direction.
I'd predict that in the future things will get even more loose, until we hit the breaking point where those "more daring" players will start losing more than winning. Then the meta will very slowly shift back into more tight direction. Same happens not just in poker, but other games with concept of risk vs reward.
So in short, people must have realized that it's widening the range on CO in profitable at this moment, so they are doing it.

That's not really what I'm asking though. Obviously the later your position, the wider your opening raising range should be. So the CO should have a wide-ish range, but not so wide as the button. I'm saying that it seems like people are raising from the cutoff with the same range as from the button.

 

[Sopt]

That's not really what I'm asking though. Obviously the later your position, the wider your opening raising range should be. So the CO should have a wide-ish range, but not so wide as the button. I'm saying that it seems like people are raising from the cutoff with the same range as from the button.

Maybe I wrote it in a confusing way, but I if you reread what I wrote again you'll get a direct answer to your question.

So to put it into different words: People figured out that by raising with same range in button and cutoff position, they are making more profit. The main reason (in my opinion) as I stated already is that with playing more aggressive and with wider range from CO, you prevent button from doing the same in that specific hand, especially if player on the button is playing by the book and expecting you to have a stronger hand than you actually do have.
It is the part of the meta game when trying to outsmart and be ahead of the curve with the newer approach. With more and more people figuring this out the meta game have shifted, so person like you and me are starting noticing that people are playing that way and with time that will result in another shift.

Hopefully this clarifies a bit better, what I believe is happening.

 

[Dobbler1]

People figured out that by raising with same range in button and cutoff position, they are making more profit.

No offense, but that seems insane on the face of it unless people are overfolding in the blinds/button. Most of the hands you'll get called by (assuming decent play by your opponents) will have most of your range crushed except the BB (and your range isn't crushing theirs), and you don't even have the benefit of position 1/3 of the time.

That reasoning could be used to expand a person's range from any position, right? If you're playing sub-optimally, and it's not exploiting other players' weaknesses (and even if it is), then it's exploitable by someone else. Over the long run, it's a loosing strategy against decent players. Am I wrong?

 

[Sopt]

No offense, but that seems insane on the face of it unless people are overfolding in the blinds/button. Most of the hands you'll get called by (assuming decent play by your opponents) will have most of your range crushed except the BB (and your range isn't crushing theirs), and you don't even have the benefit of position 1/3 of the time.

That reasoning could be used to expand a person's range from any position, right? If you're playing sub-optimally, and it's not exploiting other players' weaknesses (and even if it is), then it's exploitable by someone else. Over the long run, it's a loosing strategy against decent players. Am I wrong?

No worries just stating my opinion. I'm by no means a pro, just a recreational player with long years of experience and I could be very wrong here hehe.

The way I see it is simply as a mind game that is becoming the meta game. People saw other people doing it against them and they started doing it themselves.

Let's take an example here:
You are the button player and CO raises before you. Do you still play the same range as you would if no one raised before you? I believe you don't as you can't go and just steal the blinds with very loose raise. Do you just 4 bet him with hands like A7o that you mentioned? I don't believe you do. You more likely just call or fold if you don't know the range opponent might be playing.

I believe that players started to realize that they can abuse that from CO and they do it. Why would they let you steal blinds if they can do it themselves? And as you said it's 1/3 that you're playing out of position post flop. I don't really see 66% chance as being so bad.

Why do it in CO and not just any position? Well just because you have more people in position behind you. Goes from 66% to be in position to 50% to 40% and so on. While also adding that you could be playing against more than 1 person in position.

Also to add something else here. Yes by the way you explain it. Your range gets crushed playing by the book. But actually playing the game rarely goes completely by the book. Does your opponent know that you are playing wider range then expected from CO or do they expect you to play more premium cards? That can really help you in post flop play also, even if being statistically crushed when called.

 

[Baldy86]

i have not noticed that personally (but to be fair i did not give attention to it ) . but it would not surprise me since the cutoff is almost as good as the button like Debi said .

i personally am a somewhat loose player so for me the cutoff is candy shop lol

 

[Dobbler1]

You are the button player and CO raises before you. Do you still play the same range as you would if no one raised before you? I believe you don't as you can't go and just steal the blinds with very loose raise. Do you just 4 bet him with hands like A7o that you mentioned? I don't believe you do. You more likely just call or fold if you don't know the range opponent might be playing.

I believe that players started to realize that they can abuse that from CO and they do it. Why would they let you steal blinds if they can do it themselves? And as you said it's 1/3 that you're playing out of position post flop. I don't really see 66% chance as being so bad.

So I'm going to ask this again. Why wouldn't you use this reasoning from any position? If you can steal more by widening your range from the CO, why not the HJ or UTG? Why not widen your range even more? I hope the answer to that is obvious. Excessively loose playing is exploitable.

The way I see it, if you don't have a range that's proportionate to your position (apart from when you're playing to exploit others' weak play), then you're opening yourself up to be exploited. I mean you could just try to steal with any cards from any position too, but that's quickly easy to identify and super easy to exploit. If you play the CO like you play the button, then I'm 3 betting pretty wide from the button and SB, and I'm calling you pretty wide from the BB. That removes all the supposed advantage this approach has, and for all the times you have to fold to the 3bet, you think you're going to steal enough to offset it? I don't see it.

Also, you think a 66% chance to have position with lots of marginal hands is good? I disagree. It's fine with decent hands, but not marginal ones (which a normal button raise includes lots of) against strong hands (the calling range of most of the remaining players).

 

[Sopt]

So I'm going to ask this again. Why wouldn't you use this reasoning from any position? If you can steal more by widening your range from the CO, why not the HJ or UTG? Why not widen your range even more? I hope the answer to that is obvious. Excessively loose playing is exploitable.

The way I see it, if you don't have a range that's proportionate to your position (apart from when you're playing to exploit others' weak play), then you're opening yourself up to be exploited. I mean you could just try to steal with any cards from any position too, but that's quickly easy to identify and super easy to exploit. If you play the CO like you play the button, then I'm 3 betting pretty wide from the button and SB, and I'm calling you pretty wide from the BB. That removes all the supposed advantage this approach has, and for all the times you have to fold to the 3bet, you think you're going to steal enough to offset it? I don't see it.

Also, you think a 66% chance to have position with lots of marginal hands is good? I disagree. It's fine with decent hands, but not marginal ones (which a normal button raise includes lots of) against strong hands (the calling range of most of the remaining players).

Sadly I'll think I'll rest my case, because I believe we're just going in circles at this point and no real offense to you, but either I my writing is confusing or you aren't reading my replies in full, as you're asking me questions that I already answered beforehand.

Just to finish this off from my part with final thoughts on this topic. And bare in mind again that all stated above and here is purely my casual opinion.
You noticed yourself that people started doing it and if it's just a curiosity to you while you punish such play on the tables, then kudos to you. But as you said yourself "good poker players" are doing this, so there must be something behind it. Maybe it's what I was writing about, maybe it's something completely next level strategy. gl on the tables.

 

[Dobbler1]

But as you said yourself "good poker players" are doing this, so there must be something behind it. Maybe it's what I was writing about, maybe it's something completely next level strategy.

No, I said players that had otherwise solid opening ranges, not "good poker players". I think it's undeniable that non-optimal, non-exploitive play is poor play. I see lots of suboptimal play from certain positions, and I usually understand the thinking behind it. Opening too wide from early position is usually lack of patience. Playing too aggressively from the SB is usually failing to recognize the power of position. I understand playing all around too loose or too tight or too passively or too aggressively. Playing too wide from the cutoff only is just an unusual way to play sub-optimally that doesn't match with normal flawed human thinking.

The best explanation I can think of is that it's an attempt to exploit the bad habits of a "player pool".

 

[Sopt]

The best explanation I can think of is that it's an attempt to exploit the habits of a "player pool".

So you did come to conclusion that I was pointing out in all of my posts after all. We can agree on this one.

 

[Dobbler1]

So you did come to conclusion that I was pointing out in all of my posts after all. We can agree on this one.

That's not at all what you said. If you had, I would have asked about stakes. Certainly the player pool in a $2 buy-in game are different than in a $10 or $100 game. Which player pool is it trying to exploit, and why?

 

[Sopt]

So in short, people must have realized that it's widening the range on CO in profitable at this moment, so they are doing it.

It is the part of the meta game when trying to outsmart and be ahead of the curve with the newer approach.

I believe that players started to realize that they can abuse that from CO and they do it.

The best explanation I can think of is that it's an attempt to exploit the bad habits of a "player pool".

Compare those 3 statements I wrote to yours and tell me how they are not at all what I said? All of my replays are circling around people evolving their play to adept to standard way the "good ranges" should look like. I just added my opinion on possible reasoning which you clearly don't agree with and that is completely fine.

I do however find comments like this funny as hell and kinda sad (from a normal human perspective) in a way:

Playing too wide from the cutoff only is just an unusual way to play sub-optimally that doesn't match with normal flawed human thinking.

Why I'm saying that? It's because it reeks of entitlement. I do not know you. You might be a doctor of human psychology, you might be the best poker player in the world, but the fact remains. People are doing it and you yourself are saying that don't completely understand the reasoning (no matter how flawed) behind it.

So why even talk about it? You seem to know your game. Abuse such play. Clearly you aren't trying to accept what me and others replied to your question.

I'm getting my ass out of this thread now for real. We got to let some other fresh opinions to come in and maybe educate us with something we might be missing completely.

 

[Dobbler1]

Compare those 3 statements I wrote to yours and tell me how they are not at all what I said? All of my replays are circling around people evolving their play to adept to standard way the "good ranges" should look like. I just added my opinion on possible reasoning which you clearly don't agree with and that is completely fine.

Because you never mention exploitative play or player pools, which is exactly what I talked about. Maybe you think you were saying that, maybe it's what you meant, but it 100% isn't what you said.

So why even talk about it? You seem to know your game. Abuse such play. Clearly you aren't trying to accept what me and others replied to your question.

Because the better I understand the thinking behind sub-optimal play, the more effectively I can exploit it. Understanding the way a person plays sub-optimally is good. Understanding why they play sub-optimally is better.

And I'm not an especially good player. I have no degree, but I am interested in psychology. I think I have a good handle on how to think about poker though, and if an answer doesn't make sense to me, I'm going to push against it until it makes sense. So if the explanation you offer doesn't make sense to me (it didn't) I'm going to push back against it (I did). That's not a personal shot at you, it's just how I learn.

 

[JappsPK]

It's not just you. It's common for even good players to open wider ranges from the cutoff position, especially in situations where the players behind them are passive or tight. This is because the cutoff is a very profitable position and has the advantage of acting after most other players, which allows for more flexibility in opening ranges. However, opening with hands like A7o or Q8o from the cutoff position can be risky if the players behind you are aggressive or capable of squeezing, so it's important to consider the specific table dynamics and tendencies of your opponents before making any decisions.

 

[Station_Master]

In general you should be much tighter from the CO than button, but if the button is tight you can open more and also the blinds will be less likely to continue than v a button open, so it can be a profitable steal spot

 

[Luvepoker]

I dont think its the new button but the cut off is a great postion to play from. You are most likely to have position on the blinds over being OOP. You should not open to wide but a little wider is not that bad.

 

[MK_]

😎 it's just you...

 

[fundiver199]

A7o is a completely standard open from CO. Q8o is a standard fold from CO, but as others have said, if the players behind are passive, you can open up your range. This is especially true in tournaments, if you are a chip leader, and/or there is an ante.