Counting outs/ pot odds

T

TJlowkey

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What are tips I can use when I am counting outs and my pot odds while I'm in a live hand to not get caught up in the numbers and to lose focus on what's around me I have recently started playing cash games and excelling as a poker player but I feel to become better I need to stop being so intuitive and to look into the math more
 
U

UncleConRon

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my opinion

Cards can lose at any time. It best to take specific hole cards and do the math. If hole cards already won the don't bet them. This method is really good when the blinds are high. You just go all in.
 
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feecg

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Here on cardschat website, thay have a lot of content about odds and stuff. But what I consider using with certain frequency on the tables is the rule of 2, that is, you count your outs and multiply them for 2 and you get your percentage of winning a hand. It's very wasy to aply and it's the simplified formula of the missing outs, which is an advanced calculum used for more experienced players. This calculum is based not on your chances of winning, but on your chances of losing a hand, and its like:
1 - (missing odds on turn x missing odds on river)
I'll give you and example:
you fold an :10h4: :9h4: and the flop comes :kh4: :jd4: :3h4:, so you've got a nut flush draw here. The odds of the missing cards in the turn are 38 of the 47 unseen left, and in the river, if you dont hit a heart on turn, is, 38 of the 46 unseen left. Putting these values on the formula will give you something like
1 - (38/47 x 38/46) witch will turn into something like
1 - (0,8 x 0,82)
1 - (0,656) = 0,344 or about 35% for easy math.

And using the rule of 2 it's like, we have the turn and river yet, and in each one of these community cards we have 9 outs (the other hearts), 9 on turn and 9 on the river, so we have a total of 18. Using the rule of 2: 18x2=36, which turns to be a percentage, so, 36%.
Hope i have helped you cause i use this a lot and it have already helped me a lot on many cases.
Good luck on tables man
 
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rhombus

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dont overcomplicate it
Easy way learn the Rule of 4 2

Also look at a poker chart for the most common odds. You dont need them all just the most common ones. i,e,

Flush draw (9 outs)
19% for 1 Street 35% for 2 Streets - approx 4 to 1 for each street
Open End Straight Draw (8 Outs)
17% for 1 Street 32% for 2 Streets - approx 5 to 1 for each street

See
https://www.cardschat.com/odds-for-dummies.php
 
N

nenkov407

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Do you want an easy tip? If you have a draw do not pay more than what you think you can afford to lose or in most cases do not pay more than half the pot. I have hit the gutshot where I know I have only four outs but many times I lost a pot where I have 10 outs. So next time just think about the money not about the what are the chances to win. In most cases you will tap your chest and say "Phew I knew I shouldn't pay that".
 
bujjhati

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Here on cardschat website, thay have a lot of content about odds and stuff. But what I consider using with certain frequency on the tables is the rule of 2, that is, you count your outs and multiply them for 2 and you get your percentage of winning a hand. It's very wasy to aply and it's the simplified formula of the missing outs, which is an advanced calculum used for more experienced players. This calculum is based not on your chances of winning, but on your chances of losing a hand, and its like:
1 - (missing odds on turn x missing odds on river)
I'll give you and example:
you fold an :10h4: :9h4: and the flop comes :kh4: :jd4: :3h4:, so you've got a nut flush draw here. The odds of the missing cards in the turn are 38 of the 47 unseen left, and in the river, if you dont hit a heart on turn, is, 38 of the 46 unseen left. Putting these values on the formula will give you something like
1 - (38/47 x 38/46) witch will turn into something like
1 - (0,8 x 0,82)
1 - (0,656) = 0,344 or about 35% for easy math.

And using the rule of 2 it's like, we have the turn and river yet, and in each one of these community cards we have 9 outs (the other hearts), 9 on turn and 9 on the river, so we have a total of 18. Using the rule of 2: 18x2=36, which turns to be a percentage, so, 36%.
Hope i have helped you cause i use this a lot and it have already helped me a lot on many cases.
Good luck on tables man

Wow, that is really helpful, I always struggle to use it in a
efficient way, I did not know it was actually easy, cheers mate!
From now on I will try to use it and I will pay attention on my HUD to see if the results were improved, I hope it helps me taking better decisions.
 
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ph_il

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Cards can lose at any time. It best to take specific hole cards and do the math. If hole cards already won the don't bet them. This method is really good when the blinds are high. You just go all in.
Don't listen to this.
 
P

ph_il

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Here on cardschat website, thay have a lot of content about odds and stuff. But what I consider using with certain frequency on the tables is the rule of 2, that is, you count your outs and multiply them for 2 and you get your percentage of winning a hand. It's very wasy to aply and it's the simplified formula of the missing outs, which is an advanced calculum used for more experienced players. This calculum is based not on your chances of winning, but on your chances of losing a hand, and its like:
1 - (missing odds on turn x missing odds on river)
I'll give you and example:
you fold an :10h4: :9h4: and the flop comes :kh4: :jd4: :3h4:, so you've got a nut flush draw here.
...did you mean to write 'hold' here? Not sure how you can be on any type of draw without a hand. Anyway, you are not on a nut flush draw. You are on just a flush draw + gutshot draw. A heart can improve your hand, but it can also improve other better flushes as well. You also have 3 Qs you can draw to give you a straight as well. So, you have 12 outs here.

The odds of the missing cards in the turn are 38 of the 47 unseen left, and in the river, if you dont hit a heart on turn, is, 38 of the 46 unseen left. Putting these values on the formula will give you something like
1 - (38/47 x 38/46) witch will turn into something like
1 - (0,8 x 0,82)
1 - (0,656) = 0,344 or about 35% for easy math.
...This is correct, you have a ~35% chance to hit on the turn or river with 9 outs. You essentially get the same results whether or not you figure out the odds of you hitting or you missing. So, it really depends on which is easier for you as a player.

And using the rule of 2 it's like, we have the turn and river yet, and in each one of these community cards we have 9 outs (the other hearts), 9 on turn and 9 on the river, so we have a total of 18. Using the rule of 2: 18x2=36, which turns to be a percentage, so, 36%.
...not exactly. You have 12 outs (as shown above), but your outs don't double on the turn and river. You have 12 outs to hit on the turn, 12 outs to hit on the river if you miss the turn.

We only use the rule of 2 if we are looking at each individual street. A basic and easy rule to follow is: Is there the possibility of betting on the next street? If the answer is yes, then we use the rule of 2. With 12 outs on the flop, 12 x 2 = 24, which means we have a ~24% of hitting an out on the turn. If we want to get a little more precise, it's x 2, +1. So, 12 x 2 + 1 = ~25%

If the turn bricks and we are facing another bet, the same rule of 2 applies which gives us ~25% chance to hit our out on the turn-to-river card.

Now, if there is no possibility of future bets-for example, your opponent is all in on the flop, then we are guaranteed to see both the turn and river. Now we follow the rule of 4. 12 x 4 = ~48% chance to win on either the turn or river. It's actually lower at ~45%, but for quick math, it's close enough.

Whether we're calling on the bets depends on the hand odds vs pot odds. We can use either the ratio method or the percentage method.

If using the percentage method, then if our hand odds equity > pot odds percentage, it's a profitable call. So, if we're looking at 25% equity to hit one of our 12 outs on the turn, our pot odds needs to be <25% in order to call.

If using the ratio method, then the pot odds > card odds for it to be a profitable call. So, if we have 12 outs on the flop, there are 47 unseen cards, 12 help us, 35 dont. So, our ratio is: 35:12 = ~3:1 odds we hit. So, we need our pot odds to be greater than 3:1 in order to make a profitable call.


Hope i have helped you cause i use this a lot and it have already helped me a lot on many cases.
Good luck on tables man
Above.
 
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ivanbbb

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There is a simple rule! If you bet all-in on the flop and then multiply the number of outs by 4, if you want to see the turn or river card on 2! Flush draw 9 outs gives us, and because we are not going to shove on the flop then multiply by 2 get 18%, and if pushed all in on the flop then 9h4 = 36%! simply multiply your outs by 2 or 4, depending on your situation!

And as for the pot odds, the better you will immediately understand what the EV! expected value! It is more precise and accurate! Because the game does not always have to believe pot odds! There are implied odds! they are also called implied odds! Read more about SPR!
 
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alextepi

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lots of people speak in maths. I follow the feeling with or without the odds. Maybe counting the outs, the odds want help too much and a fold may be the best decision.
 
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Running Nose II

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There always has to be some calculation when you play poker, otherwise how will you know whether or not you are making a value bet. You know the number of outs as soon as the flop goes down. You know how much is in the pot and how much it is to bet. Divide the money in the pot by how much it is to bet. If this sum is greater that your hand odds it is a value bet
 
OzExorcist

OzExorcist

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If you're playing online, I found the easiest way was just to print out an outs/odds chart and stick it next to the monitor. Very quickly you'll have memorised the most common ones anyway, freeing you up to just do some quick math on the pot odds you're being offered.
 
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Running Nose II

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To make my answer clearer: You know the number of outs when the flop goes down. Your hand odds are, 47 minus the number of outs, divided by the number of outs. An example will help. Say you have an open ended straight draw, you have 8 outs. Your hand odds are
(47 - 8)/8 = 39/8 or almost 5/1 (4.75/1). It's amazing how quickly you can calculate these numbers after a bit of practice.
 
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