Controversial way to avoid tilt: The pleasure of retaining chips...

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Rational Madman

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Some will way 'don't play not to lose chips, only play to gain them'...

WRONG! This is very emotionally damaging to a player and will make you make SILLY moves!

But go ahead and think this way.

You will gain no pleasure when you see a loose donk overbet his 3's and hit 3 of a kind to someone who called him.

Even if this is results-oriented thinking, you shouldn't fold hoping that you get to smile at the lack of loss but you should still enjoy it if your fold was netiher +Ev nor -EV but an avoidance of -EV that is proven to really have saved you from a bad beat.

Nothing can please me like a fold where I was going to be brutally coolered (I would certainly have engaged all-in) if I had even entered the flop.

I smile very much to this. Enjoy the losses you AVOIDED! This is so important to keep you happy to fold but also is important as it teaches you that folding isn't 'safe' it's just one of many ways to react to a player ('betting' isn't one action it's a varied move of many amounts)

Don't feel bored by folding smile at the stupidity of the donkeys and THANK THEM deep down for scaring you away from that loss!

Yes, of course nothing is so frustrating as having 10 Q and flopping 9 J and some donk overbets J7 just ot see 8 come at the turn and see a guy with 89 push allin, knowing all those chips would have been yours had the J7 donk not overbet... So to counteract this rage and sadness ENJOY THE BAD BEATS THAT DID NOT HAPPEN TO YOU! :D

This is so important for 2 reasons:

1) It keeps you hooked to the game even while folding and thus you will gain form all folds a read on players at the very least
2) It keeps you happy even while losing chips here and there because you realise how many more you'd have lost with those foolish calls or raises.

Everyone focuses when things go wrong or right but so few players focus when things go far less wrong than they could have and smile about it.
 
wsbar

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Madman, do you think it's okay for me to open any hand to see the Flop paying only the BB at the beginning of a tournament?in final position.
 
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Rational Madman

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Madman, do you think it's okay for me to open any hand to see the Flop paying only the BB at the beginning of a tournament?in final position.
If the SB and BB have not shown much preflop aggression so far then sure.
 
AshK44

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Madman, do you think it's okay for me to open any hand to see the Flop paying only the BB at the beginning of a tournament?in final position.



I think this if you have a good stack and position that there is no harm in occasionally checking out some mediocre starting hands. The trick is to make sure you fold if the flop doesn’t produce a really good hand and to not do it too often where you dwindle your stack too much. Also a bad idea to do if the blinds are really high. In that stage I think if you are going to play you need to be more committed to good hands and good bluffs.
 
LX4

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I remember one crazy hand yesterday where i was playing very tight before the bubble. I had QQ. UTG 3-bets. Then big stack next to me goes all in. Now, i was already pretty sure I was going to fold, but the big stack made it easy and i was very happy in the end. BB short stack called the all-in as well as UTG and i got to see 88 from the original raiser, and JJ from the BB. And the big stack on my right had KK. Chips saved.

What I was particularly happy with, was the UTG dude initially raising, and motivating KK to go all-in. It might have been too tempting to call the initial 3-bet, and after the flop I could have gotten into real trouble. It was a nice way to learn that lesson.
 
gon4iypes

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Hello Madman, I really enjoy reading your posts....well reasoned out and intelligently presented. Thank you!!!
 
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Rational Madman

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I remember one crazy hand yesterday where i was playing very tight before the bubble. I had QQ. UTG 3-bets. Then big stack next to me goes all in. Now, i was already pretty sure I was going to fold, but the big stack made it easy and i was very happy in the end. BB short stack called the all-in as well as UTG and i got to see 88 from the original raiser, and JJ from the BB. And the big stack on my right had KK. Chips saved.

What I was particularly happy with, was the UTG dude initially raising, and motivating KK to go all-in. It might have been too tempting to call the initial 3-bet, and after the flop I could have gotten into real trouble. It was a nice way to learn that lesson.

Very good application of this. If I am reading it right the even better news is the one you folded to had worse hand than you but the one after you had better so in a way the fold was 'wrong' but you can definitely enjoy watching that occur. Really take it in; the unhappiness you just avoided... It's beautiful.

Hello Madman, I really enjoy reading your posts....well reasoned out and intelligently presented. Thank you!!!

thank you very much for this comment. <3
 
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Some will way 'don't play not to lose chips, only play to gain them'...

WRONG! This is very emotionally damaging to a player and will make you make SILLY moves!

But go ahead and think this way.

You will gain no pleasure when you see a loose donk overbet his 3's and hit 3 of a kind to someone who called him.
...but if you see this and take note of it, you can exploit them for a ton of value when you have a big hand.

Even if this is results-oriented thinking, you shouldn't fold hoping that you get to smile at the lack of loss but you should still enjoy it if your fold was netiher +Ev nor -EV but an avoidance of -EV that is proven to really have saved you from a bad beat.
...If you're in a situation where you have a ton of equity in the hand and you fold because you're afraid of getting sucked out on, then the fold is bad regardless of the results. Folding in a +EV situation is a bad play, unless in really specific situations like ICM pay jumps or satellite ticket payout bubble.

Nothing can please me like a fold where I was going to be brutally coolered (I would certainly have engaged all-in) if I had even entered the flop.
...Like you said, this is result oriented thinking. Coolers don't matter. You get it in good, opponent gets it in better...no biggie.

Lets say you get in with KK and opponent has AA. Cooler, but if you opponent is going to get in with 99+, A10s+ AQo+, KJs+ as often as there are with AA, then folding is terrible.


I smile very much to this. Enjoy the losses you AVOIDED! This is so important to keep you happy to fold but also is important as it teaches you that folding isn't 'safe' it's just one of many ways to react to a player ('betting' isn't one action it's a varied move of many amounts)
...You lose value for your big hands when you make bad folds that would've won.

Case in point: lets say you have nut straight and opponent is on nut flush draw on turn. Pot is 100 BBs and opponent jams 60 BBs with only only 20% equity to win. You need to call 60 BBs to win 160. This gives you a +EV of 116 BBs, it's a profitable call. Even if 60 BBs puts you all-in, it's a profitable call.

With 20% equity, you opponent is only winning 1/5 times and you're only giving up 60 BBs 1/5 times, but if you fold, you completely give up that 160 BB pot you're winning 80% of the time. Call me crazy, but I'd rather give up 60 BBs 20% of the time than miss out on that 160 BB pot I'm winning 4/5 times.

So, yeah, while folding does keep you "safe" from those bad beats, you also give up a ton of value.


Don't feel bored by folding smile at the stupidity of the donkeys and THANK THEM deep down for scaring you away from that loss!
...Well, if the donks are forcing you to make bad folds, then...what does that make you?

Yes, of course nothing is so frustrating as having 10 Q and flopping 9 J and some donk overbets J7 just ot see 8 come at the turn and see a guy with 89 push allin, knowing all those chips would have been yours had the J7 donk not overbet... So to counteract this rage and sadness ENJOY THE BAD BEATS THAT DID NOT HAPPEN TO YOU! :D
...I'm not seeing a bad beat in this example.

Also, you were behind in the hand. So, depending on bet sizes and such, this is likely a good fold or possibly a -EV situation to call for an OESD. I don't know because it depends on a lot of things, but I don't think this is a terrible fold.


This is so important for 2 reasons:

1) It keeps you hooked to the game even while folding and thus you will gain form all folds a read on players at the very least
2) It keeps you happy even while losing chips here and there because you realise how many more you'd have lost with those foolish calls or raises.
...Yes, if you're playing a wide range of hands and making poor/loose limps/calls and not capitalizing when you hit strong, then you'll be bleeding chips.

But going back to my straight vs flush example, giving up + EV spots is giving up value. In that situation, you can fold 100% and save 60 BBs. x 10, that's 600 BBs saved, not bad.

But if you call, 20% of the time you lose 120 BBs and 80% of the time you win 160 BBs. 160 x 8 = 1280.

That's 680 BBs you gave up because you didn't want to lose 60 BBs to a hand with 20% equity. Again, call me foolish, but I'd rather profit 1280 BBs than save 600.


Everyone focuses when things go wrong or right but so few players focus when things go far less wrong than they could have and smile about it.
...That's result oriented thinking.

Simply put, if you make a +EV play and lose, it's still a good play no matter what. Results in poker don't matter, it's the decisions that do.
above.
 
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If you are not results oriented you play like a bot and are so predictable. If you notice a really tight player reraising your 3bet then consider folding kk even consider folding ak just because you'd rather engage allin with a looser players hand.
 
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This makes absolutely no sense.
I am oriented to the results of my plays not what may work 9/10 times but i get the 1/10 and think oh well im not results oriented. Make the 10/10 plays :)
 
Serjo600

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it can be described in one line - saved money in poker is the same as win money David Sklasky(с).
 
darthdimsky

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I am oriented to the results of my plays not what may work 9/10 times but i get the 1/10 and think oh well im not results oriented. Make the 10/10 plays :)

???

Not pretending to be smart. So can you explain with some examples like OSMB did?
 
R

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???

Not pretending to be smart. So can you explain with some examples like OSMB did?
Obviously if you allin preflop it is never a 10/10 play. I meant with more post-flop donks where you can easily put them on a hand weaker than you and slowplay them. This is a 10/10 play as you know they'd all-in if they had the better nut hand.
 
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lagfishbilly

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Madman, do you think it's okay for me to open any hand to see the Flop paying only the BB at the beginning of a tournament?in final position.
I think this is a bad idea because you are giving the players in the blinds a free flop. What happens when you make a hand but their random 83o makes two pair? Also it is impossible to put them on a range of hands when you give them a free flop.
 
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I will now try to play according to your recipe - FREEROLL...
 
Keith_MM

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Hello Madman, I really enjoy reading your posts....well reasoned out and intelligently presented. Thank you!!!
this is the reason why we have too continually show that you are saying is wrong. People see that you have a lot of posts and think that you know what you are talking about when they don't have the experience or knowledge to see the faults with what you say.If they knew that you probably had less experience than them , you words would be less dangerous to the passing readers ofthis forum.


Originally Posted by Rational Madman
Some will way 'don't play not to lose chips, only play to gain them'...

WRONG! This is very emotionally damaging to a player and will make you make SILLY moves!

But go ahead and think this way.

You will gain no pleasure when you see a loose donk overbet his 3's and hit 3 of a kind to someone who called him.
...but if you see this and take note of it, you can exploit them for a ton of value when you have a big hand.

Even if this is results-oriented thinking, you shouldn't fold hoping that you get to smile at the lack of loss but you should still enjoy it if your fold was netiher +Ev nor -EV but an avoidance of -EV that is proven to really have saved you from a bad beat.
...If you're in a situation where you have a ton of equity in the hand and you fold because you're afraid of getting sucked out on, then the fold is bad regardless of the results. Folding in a +EV situation is a bad play, unless in really specific situations like ICM pay jumps or satellite ticket payout bubble.

Nothing can please me like a fold where I was going to be brutally coolered (I would certainly have engaged all-in) if I had even entered the flop.
...Like you said, this is result oriented thinking. Coolers don't matter. You get it in good, opponent gets it in better...no biggie.

Lets say you get in with KK and opponent has AA. Cooler, but if you opponent is going to get in with 99+, A10s+ AQo+, KJs+ as often as there are with AA, then folding is terrible.

I smile very much to this. Enjoy the losses you AVOIDED! This is so important to keep you happy to fold but also is important as it teaches you that folding isn't 'safe' it's just one of many ways to react to a player ('betting' isn't one action it's a varied move of many amounts)
...You lose value for your big hands when you make bad folds that would've won.

Case in point: lets say you have nut straight and opponent is on nut flush draw on turn. Pot is 100 BBs and opponent jams 60 BBs with only only 20% equity to win. You need to call 60 BBs to win 160. This gives you a +EV of 116 BBs, it's a profitable call. Even if 60 BBs puts you all-in, it's a profitable call.

With 20% equity, you opponent is only winning 1/5 times and you're only giving up 60 BBs 1/5 times, but if you fold, you completely give up that 160 BB pot you're winning 80% of the time. Call me crazy, but I'd rather give up 60 BBs 20% of the time than miss out on that 160 BB pot I'm winning 4/5 times.

So, yeah, while folding does keep you "safe" from those bad beats, you also give up a ton of value
.

Don't feel bored by folding smile at the stupidity of the donkeys and THANK THEM deep down for scaring you away from that loss!
...Well, if the donks are forcing you to make bad folds, then...what does that make you?

Yes, of course nothing is so frustrating as having 10 Q and flopping 9 J and some donk overbets J7 just ot see 8 come at the turn and see a guy with 89 push allin, knowing all those chips would have been yours had the J7 donk not overbet... So to counteract this rage and sadness ENJOY THE BAD BEATS THAT DID NOT HAPPEN TO YOU!
...I'm not seeing a bad beat in this example.

Also, you were behind in the hand. So, depending on bet sizes and such, this is likely a good fold or possibly a -EV situation to call for an OESD. I don't know because it depends on a lot of things, but I don't think this is a terrible fold.


This is so important for 2 reasons:

1) It keeps you hooked to the game even while folding and thus you will gain form all folds a read on players at the very least
2) It keeps you happy even while losing chips here and there because you realise how many more you'd have lost with those foolish calls or raises.
...Yes, if you're playing a wide range of hands and making poor/loose limps/calls and not capitalizing when you hit strong, then you'll be bleeding chips.

But going back to my straight vs flush example, giving up + EV spots is giving up value. In that situation, you can fold 100% and save 60 BBs. x 10, that's 600 BBs saved, not bad.

But if you call, 20% of the time you lose 120 BBs and 80% of the time you win 160 BBs. 160 x 8 = 1280.

That's 680 BBs you gave up because you didn't want to lose 60 BBs to a hand with 20% equity. Again, call me foolish, but I'd rather profit 1280 BBs than save 600.

Everyone focuses when things go wrong or right but so few players focus when things go far less wrong than they could have and smile about it.
...That's result oriented thinking.

Simply put, if you make a +EV play and lose, it's still a good play no matter what. Results in poker don't matter, it's the decisions that do.
above.

And these are the reasons why your ideas are wrong. You have extreme variance in your results because of the way you play , as you move up you are going to get crushed playing as you do because you will be up against much better players who will exploit all of your leaks and smaller numbers of fish.
 
wuffeli

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Obviously if you allin preflop it is never a 10/10 play. I meant with more post-flop donks where you can easily put them on a hand weaker than you and slowplay them. This is a 10/10 play as you know they'd all-in if they had the better nut hand.

Mate, there is not such thing as 10/10 plays. Strategy you just described is easily crackable by bluffing more often, simple as that.. You just have to adjust to different type of players and make the correct decision, which can sometimes cause loss but in long term it is profitable.

By the way, "result oriented playing" is the opposite of intentional losing in poker. Why would you not do that?
 
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thank you all for your positive feedback, much love to the haters. <3
 
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