This is a discussion on CC 300 Weekly Freeroll FT correct move or rush? within the online poker forums, in the Learning Poker section; Hi there CardsChat community, nice sunday to everyone! I don't know too much about tournaments, as I said before, so here comes my doubt and |
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CC 300 Weekly Freeroll FT correct move or rush? |
#1
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CC 300 Weekly Freeroll FT correct move or rush?
Hi there CardsChat community, nice sunday to everyone!
I don't know too much about tournaments, as I said before, so here comes my doubt and I count with the help of the community: Yesterday I was in the FT of the CardsChat Weekly 300 Freeroll, in position 4th of 6 remaining players. I had 17 blinds and was in the SB who comes in gap. The player in the BB had 62 blinds. I had A9o and decided to push/shove/all-in. BB thought a lot and called with 99, we flipped and BB won. This was the correct exploitation? Could I've waited more, considering there was only 2 players behind me? Should I wait in situations where there are 2 pay jumps behind me? Thanks in advance, have a nice day Regards; Carlos 'Aballinamion' Barbosa
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Respect and gl always! |
#2
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Action is confusing please try to simply say the actions that took place for the future, with bb, stats of course.
A9o shove for blinds is definitely a bad play imo
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#3
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If you were ranked 6th out of 6 and action had folded to you in the SB, then I think A9o is ok to push with.. You are perhaps a little unlucky here because if the BB isn't as strong as pocket nines then they probably fold, and you take down the blinds. With that being said, when you are at a final table and there are players with less chips than you, you should avoid risking your stack against the players that have you covered unless you are about a 90% favourite. This all comes down to ICM, which I mentioned in your previous thread, I would suggest you at least have a look at the ICM basics (if you haven't already) before reaching your next final table... Here are a few handy ICM guidelines... 1) ICM always advises to call with tighter ranges in tournaments than cash games. 2) The first chip you have is always the most valuable. Doubling your stack never doubles the value of your chips (it's always less) 3) Correct ICM play has the most impact before and during bubbles. 4) Correct ICM play usually advises avoid narrow all-ins if there are players left with fewer chips than you. 5) If you have a medium-sized stack during bubble you should almost always avoid coin flips (or 60/40 all-ins) and fold instead. 6) Big stacks should often threaten middle stacks during bubble as they can only call with narrow ranges. With that all said, at the end of the day, you made a final table and finished 6th, which is very good going and definitely something to build on! Grats again!
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#4
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In fact, it comes in gap to SB/Hero but I believe it doesn't change the situation too much. You are right there were 2 players with less chips than I was, and they could easily lose the tournament earlier and put me in 4th place, which is real much better than 6th, but, by the same token, BB could only have called me safely with 15% of range or even less. Next time I will be more nitty in situations like this. Wonderful comment! Regards; Carlos 'Aballinamion' Barbosa
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Respect and gl always! |
#5
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I would probably have done the same. Blind vs. blind you can jam pretty light, because you are up against only one completely random hand, and many people tend to fold to much. Also what is the alternativ here? Limp-fold? Limp-call? Or just fold and let him have it? Neither of that sounds great to me. So I guess, that if we limp, we are just hoping, he will allow us to do it and not jam?
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#6
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I'm still not clear if there was a limp/raise ahead or if Carlos was on the button...
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#7
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The action came in gap to the SB, where I was, and then there was only me and the BB to speak, the other players were not involved in the hand. I mentioned them just for the sake of knowing that they had smaller stacks compared to mine. Sorry everybody, thanks a lot Fundiver199 for your comment, also very much appreciated. Regards; Carlos 'Aballinamion' Barbosa
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Respect and gl always! |
#8
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CC 300 Weekly Freeroll FT correct move or rush?
Hello good night friend, I will state my opinion, at this point 6 players championship, I would consider ICM A9 a hand that I would fold in my opinion.
luck at the tables.
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#9
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Now the spot has been clarified I'd be interested in other people's opinions... Personally I probably push there fairly often as well, depending on the size of the ladders.. Your English is great Carlos, something as complicated as poker must be extremely difficult to discuss in a second language, you are doing excellently!
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#10
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You took a risk and got burned.
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#11
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I think you pushed at the right time,while you still had some stack worth pushing with,got to be in to win...vgg.
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#12
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There are times when it's correct and times that it's not. If it was folded to you, I say it's correct. You have one hand to get through and they woke up with a solid holding.
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The Dude Abides
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#13
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We are only behind to AT-AK and 99-AA, which he will only have 6,4% of the time, and yet you want to give him a walk?
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#14
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Well, I’m not such a good player, I play micros and freerolls, but I had to disagree with you. He has almost 3,5 times bigger stack then us, and he can call easily call us with any two cards, and we risking 17B to win 2B. So I think that is not a really good move with A9o- not flopping well. My opinion is to let him have this hand, we have 17BB and plenty of time to cache better hand and better spots
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#15
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If he call with any two cards, then we are jamming for value, since we are ahead of 94% of his range. If on the other hand he only call, when we are behind, then we pick up 2,0-2,5BB in blinds and antes uncontested 94% of the time. This is pretty meaningfull to a 17BB stack. It is also acceptable to limp into the pot, or maybe even put in a standard raise, but under no circumstance can we ever fold A9 in this spot. I think, you are vastly underestimating, how good a hand it actually is heads up. Also there is no particular ICM-pressure here. We are the third shortest stack, and the big payjumps are in the top, so we need to chip up. No offense, but if you fold A9 in a spot like this, then it is going to be really difficult for you to win tournaments. You can not just sit and wait for the nuts, when play gets short handed.
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#16
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re: Poker & CC 300 Weekly Freeroll FT correct move or rush?
I didn’t say that he need to wait nuts, waiting better spots is what I’m saying, and playing with A9o against biggest stack isn’t. A6o-A9o I will fold no matter what math or books says. I have some experience with final tables, and short stack play on them. With 17BB you have lots of time to play.
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#17
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Its not ideal to have the chip leader on our direct left. But he is going to remain there for the rest of the tournament, so there is rarely going to be “a better spot”. Sure he might fold UTG, and then we can play a pot against someone else, when we are in the big blind. But other than that he will always be there to act after us, whenever we decide to play a hand.
This is not a complete hand history, and if the two short stacks were running on fumes and likely to bust in the next orbit, then it can be ok to nit up completely. But if they had like 10-15BB, we cannot just sit and wait for them to bust. We are getting blinded away, and maybe they get a dubble, and now suddenly we are the short stack.
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#18
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Thanks everyone who posted here as well, specially the Dude, fundiver199 and Tracid, not in disregard to the others. Before pushing SB x BB in gap I thought all of these stuff. I really don't think I would have plenty of time to wait for AT, AJ, or a pocke pair (also no guarantee that when these hands come, that I will beat the opponent). We were in a six-max table in the FT, for a miracle 3 players were eliminated in just one hand and then the FT got to short. I play Cash 6-Max tables and I know how fast the blinds are, without antes! In 15 minutes, if I didn't play any hand I would be with 8-10 blinds very easily and then players could call me very lighter. I don't know about you guys, but I love playing for ROI, not to be ITM. Of course I could be nitty and wait for the two other players to go out, and sometimes even more players are eliminated before me. I didn't want to wait, I wanted to take initiative upon the tournament and fight for the first position. The players on my right were shorter stacked than me, so they will put a lot of pressure trying to double, not giving me room for it (2 shorter stacks players) The players on my right were all deeper stacked than me (3 deeper stacks players), so I would not put a lot of pressure upon this guys. When I have 17 blinds, I can still hurt the stacks size of a player with 40-50 BB, this is another reason why I decided to push , in gap, SB x BB. Now, if I have only 8-12 blinds, and decide to push, I will get a ton of lighting calls and ended up busted anyway. I believe that what fundiver199 is trying to say here is that in the long run, this is the proper line we should take. The player in the BB wasn't a nitty player at all! Versus a nitty I would never push A9o here because the chances of losing is greater. The player in the BB was a very decent/competent LAG, that in my opinion, would call with a lighter range than usual because it was really the Cheap Leader with 62 BB. The same way it called with 99, it could have call me with 22-KK, a bunch of broadways and it wouldn't change so much, I still have 30% equity, versus anything it has, except AT+ and AA. Means that I will be taking this pot down 30% of times, which is an awesome number to me. Unfortunately, it wasn't this time, but hey: we cannot be results oriented. Regards; Carlos 'Aballinamion' Barbosa
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Respect and gl always! |
#19
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On the A9 with sb can play a limp. On the A9 out of position with a short stack it right. If somebody after you raises you then it is possible to hope that the rest is up to you will fold their hands. One by one your hand is strong enough. Sometimes it is better to wait for a stronger hand all in. Because as you climb up the table and earn more.
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#20
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Limping in from SB is certainly a viable option with 17BB. If I limp or jam will depend very much on, what dynamics I have with the player in BB. If he is overly aggressive and abusing his stack, then I dont really want to limp A9, because its not quite strong enough to be a good trapping hand. It will be ahead of the range, he jam, but its not in great shape, unless he has A2-A8 or 9X, and we are going to bust a decent amount of the time.
So if limp-calling is the realistic alternativ to giving him a walk, then I prefer to jam. I would prefer, our stack was slightly shorter, and/or our hand slightly stronger, but jamming is one of the few things, that can get even the chip leader to back off, so we can pick up some chips, and I am sure, its +EV with A9. If he is a more calm player and wont jam most of his range against our limp, then I prefer limping and playing a small pot out of position. The only thing, I dont like here, is to make a mini-raise or something. This can work from any other seat, because we have position on BB. But if we do it from SB, he can call us with almost any two cards, and then we have just bloated the pot in a situation, where he have all the advantages postflop.
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#21
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I'm definitely not folding, and my push / bet / call decision comes down to my reads on the BB and how he's been playing with his big stack.
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#22
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We can't just open jam BvB the absolute monster hands, we also need to set an image for future plays against the same opponent , for example we must have some open limps/folds if we get 2bet and some open limps/jams against the BB. If the OP could run it in ICMzer (you can run one HH/day for free on the site) I think the call here should be super marginal(ICM and not $EV) IMHO OP, I guess, he could easily jam profitable more than 50% range - I really don't know the precise percentage-, CL can't find easily the call here and risk ~30% of his stack in a flip. Chip leading FT is a key element to win MTTs. ps.Nice spot for discussion
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I know one thing, that I know nothing.
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#23
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I'm with you here BTW I went out in 11th in the same game shoving KJs in a VERY similar situation as the OP.
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#24
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The blinds solve almost everything) So here 50% 50
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#25
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I think it needs icmizer to run some calculations. If the two short stacks are left with 1BB, I believe this is easy ICM fold. But not clear cut to me if their stacks are like 6-10 BB
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#26
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Noted a similar situation with Evan Jarvis when he went out of the 1M GTG in 5th place with K8. He was languishing in 5th place and needed to stack chips. In real time Jarvis played it thinking the call correct as I did watching the video. A solver later said otherwise (though I have not been able to clarify what the solver 'specified' if anything. I agree, you cannot be folding A9 in this position. Already A9 will likely have been played several times throughout the tourney (rightly and wrongly) but at this juncture only facing the BB? The irony to me is that I would have hesitated to play 99's from the big blind. I would have, yes, but would wince at the prospect.
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#27
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Yes, yes totally nice spot. You got the point here, and I mostly agree with you, but poker is not just mathematics, there are lots more things in this game, like psychology, reading players tendencies, tactics, strategy, ... and that is why it’s so popular, and that why we all love it. And one more thing, it’s good to be chip leader on the final table, but it’s not crucial to win tournament
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#28
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CC hand replayer
I see that I didn't explained very well this hand, so here it comes the replayer:
https://www.cardschat.com/replayer/124uaIeN6 Regards; Carlos 'Aballinamion' Barbosa
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Respect and gl always! |
#29
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Well said , of course we need adjustments based on the situation/dynamics/opponents and not follow the spots by the book!I totally agree with you here!
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I know one thing, that I know nothing.
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#30
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2 players ,b vs b...with a -20 bb stack...shoving any Ace is ok if your only in tis situation. just bad timing he a pp, could fold almost any other hand to shove. But for villian to call any you must be aggro, if passive -"v" will likely fold . All these talk about trackers and is irrelevent at freeroll stakes.
Edit: I would do the same everytime
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Everyone tinks I'm a nit, I knw what I'm doing.
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#31
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17 BB is too many to be shoving unless you think the rest of the table has a huge advantage on you and you can't beat them postflop. Action is a little hazy but sounds like it folds to you in the SB. If that is the case I just raise here 2.5 to 3x and try to take the blinds. If the BB calls then tread lightly and play accordingly depending on the flop. Being 4th of 6 you have to think about ICM (I know, some of you laugh about that for it being a freeroll) and know there is value waiting a little longer depending on how short 5th and 6th place are and the pay jumps.
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#32
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re: Poker & CC 300 Weekly Freeroll FT correct move or rush?
Seeing the hand replay has made this decision more difficult for me..
I was much more confident with the hazy hand summary...! This is because now I see your stack is just above the level I would consider myself push/fold pre and UTG has like 3BB! With full detail I think I lean more towards an open here instead of a shove, but both have pro's and con's. I agree with a previous post- open fold is mistake. |
#33
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You should have folded immediately, if they were at least suited I wouldn't blame you but it's still a bad and risky decision.
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#34
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hi all, i want the password at cardschat weekly 300 $, pleasse
salut tuturor, vreau parola la cardchat săptămânal 300 $, please
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#35
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If you were short stack then ICM (though dont quote me on ICM as I screw this up) really isnt the issue and the push is good.
if the other stacks are shorter, YOU KNOW MAN I DUNNO cause If I fold here usually some stupid stuff happens I end being the 1st of the 6 to go. Also I dotn want to be blinded lower than lower stacks. The shove aint the problem, the ICM might be. but hey if this is final 3 tables GOOD SHOVE, but re-reading this you might of RRAI the btn or something. that maybe not then. but open shove fine, if btn open and you shoved from SB probably not fine in ICM land. There I tried LOL!!! They say if you can explain, then you understand it, so as you see Im neither edit - looks like an open shove - so it looks good if your the shortie. I guess you could bet/fold but leave ya with 14bb which might be a better option. Esp at FT when the real money is on the line OK thats what Im doing IM BET/FOLD but see if you get called then you got problems trying to feel out the hand as you got no FE hardly as you can see im just talking and typing and this is me going through my own hands most of the time. so ...
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#36
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(My opinion only
A/9 o is a crap hand that should played very cautiously. Personally I would have limp or min-raise and then decided what to do on the eventual re-raise. Probably fold, because as stated A/9 o isn't a great hand. I'd call down A/T all day - but not A/9 o. Possibly if it was suited, - but I'd probably still nit fold it. 15-17bb gives you roughly 10-12 orbits to find a better spot to chip up and also gives you time to wait for the shorter stacks to bust out.
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#37
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First, A9 vs 99 is not a flip, 99 is winning preflop. In this spot, since you are 4th of 6 players in a FT, and considering BB has a much bigger stack than you, I expect him to defend lots of times when you try to steal. And going all in doesn’t do much for you. I think folding is best
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#38
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I have done this and lost but only with <10BB.
I agree that 17BB is too much to shove here. But seeing that UTG has only 3BB - I would hold back on any shove in order to ladder up. I like HP's point about 2.5x and treading lightly. Basically ready to fold. But your chips are so precious - and out of position - and short handed tables are my strength....probably skip this hand. Although my buddy likes to point out that with an Ax you always have at least 33% equity preflop!
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#39
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I would probably fold in that case and play more tighter because as you said there were two more players with less chips than you. and I would shove only with really good hand
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#40
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Usually the shove in this spot is standard.. 'BUT' in this particular case it might not be.
You're on a CC freeroll final table. Players will be massively exploitable. On 17bb's you might want to Limp>Stab>Steal. More often than not though, it's a shove. (keep in mind, many of the responses here need to be filtered... maybe mine too Also, it's important to post stack sizes of ALL the players on the table & possibly payouts too. (& player reads... ie one poster suggests that because the big blind's stack is much bigger than your's, it is correct for him to call your shove with any two cards. This is 100% incorrect... 'BUT' it does leave interpretation for player reads (ie. if BB thinks similarly to that poster). In a freeroll, most will be shoving too tight, & calling open raises too wide (on effective short stacks). Depending upon player in 'that' game, I might LRRAI (note how some posters suggest that they'll limp or bet and then decide how they'll respond to a re-raise or shove 'after' villain acts... instead of prior)
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#41
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Limp shove is so much better, cuz bb must raise vs your limp at least bottom 30% hands, so you can just win extra 2bb by limp shoving.
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#42
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The ICM pressure is as high as possible, if two players had fewer chips than you, then you should wait.
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#43
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damn it, I remembered that moment when I saw the replay.
it's strange that it's been so long and I haven't seen this thread. I know that most players push any empty ACE as soon as they see it and wait for a miracle (and it often comes). I'm not good at math, but A9 isn't a very good hand in this situation. if you think from the BB side, he loses a little more than a third of his stack when he loses a hand, and he has every chance to fight again. however, if he knocks a player out of the fight, then he will get the same third and will feel even more confident, but with fewer players. as for 99, this is a good enough hand to make a call, but I would not immediately push A high, I would put 2.5 BB. but based on experience, in response to 3bet would have to shove.
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#44
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sAshkinAk
password d
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#45
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Player from Eastern block countries seem to due this more than others. It is a freeroll and yes on PS it seems that A 6 beats AQ too often. Perhaps its part of the computer program to keep the game exciting? How can 3 players enter a pot and everyone hits a piece of the flop?
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#46
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I need ticket
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#47
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#48
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re: Poker & CC 300 Weekly Freeroll FT correct move or rush?
Buenos dias.
Hace ya mucho tiempo que me inicie en este mundo del poker, leo sus comentarios y de cada uno de ellos siempre aprendo un poco mas. Saludos desde Cordoba, Argentina
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