CC 300 Weekly Freeroll FT correct move or rush?

[Aballinamion]

Hi there CardsChat community, nice sunday to everyone!
I don't know too much about tournaments, as I said before, so here comes my doubt and I count with the help of the community:

Yesterday I was in the FT of the CardsChat Weekly 300 Freeroll, in position 4th of 6 remaining players.
I had 17 blinds and was in the SB who comes in gap. The player in the BB had 62 blinds.
I had A9o and decided to push/shove/all-in. BB thought a lot and called with 99, we flipped and BB won. (gg always)
This was the correct exploitation? Could I've waited more, considering there was only 2 players behind me? Should I wait in situations where there are 2 pay jumps behind me?
Thanks in advance, have a nice day

Regards;

Carlos 'Aballinamion' Barbosa

 

[azforlife]

Action is confusing please try to simply say the actions that took place for the future, with bb, stats of course.
A9o shove for blinds is definitely a bad play imo

 

[Tracid]

Hi there CardsChat community, nice sunday to everyone!
I don't know too much about tournaments, as I said before, so here comes my doubt and I count with the help of the community:

Yesterday I was in the FT of the CardsChat Weekly 300 Freeroll, in position 4th of 6 remaining players.
I had 17 blinds and was in the SB who comes in gap. The player in the BB had 62 blinds.
I had A9o and decided to push/shove/all-in. BB thought a lot and called with 99, we flipped and BB won. (gg always)
This was the correct exploitation? Could I've waited more, considering there was only 2 players behind me? Should I wait in situations where there are 2 pay jumps behind me?
Thanks in advance, have a nice day

Regards;

Carlos 'Aballinamion' Barbosa

Presumably, if you were in the SB and there were two players left to act after your all-in then someone must have limped or raised in front of you? This is very relevant.

If you were ranked 6th out of 6 and action had folded to you in the SB, then I think A9o is ok to push with..


You are perhaps a little unlucky here because if the BB isn't as strong as pocket nines then they probably fold, and you take down the blinds.

With that being said, when you are at a final table and there are players with less chips than you, you should avoid risking your stack against the players that have you covered unless you are about a 90% favourite.

This all comes down to ICM, which I mentioned in your previous thread, I would suggest you at least have a look at the ICM basics (if you haven't already) before reaching your next final table...

Here are a few handy ICM guidelines...

1) ICM always advises to call with tighter ranges in tournaments than cash games.

2) The first chip you have is always the most valuable. Doubling your stack never doubles the value of your chips (it's always less)

3) Correct ICM play has the most impact before and during bubbles.

4) Correct ICM play usually advises avoid narrow all-ins if there are players left with fewer chips than you.

5) If you have a medium-sized stack during bubble you should almost always avoid coin flips (or 60/40 all-ins) and fold instead.

6) Big stacks should often threaten middle stacks during bubble as they can only call with narrow ranges.


With that all said, at the end of the day, you made a final table and finished 6th, which is very good going and definitely something to build on!

Grats again! :congrats:

 

[Aballinamion]

Presumably, if you were in the SB and there were two players left to act after your all-in then someone must have limped or raised in front of you? This is very relevant.

If you were ranked 6th out of 6 and action had folded to you in the SB, then I think A9o is ok to push with..


You are perhaps a little unlucky here because if the BB isn't as strong as pocket nines then they probably fold, and you take down the blinds.

With that being said, when you are at a final table and there are players with less chips than you, you should avoid risking your stack against the players that have you covered unless you are about a 90% favourite.

This all comes down to ICM, which I mentioned in your previous thread, I would suggest you at least have a look at the ICM basics (if you haven't already) before reaching your next final table...

Here are a few handy ICM guidelines...

1) ICM always advises to call with tighter ranges in tournaments than cash games.

2) The first chip you have is always the most valuable. Doubling your stack never doubles the value of your chips (it's always less)

3) Correct ICM play has the most impact before and during bubbles.

4) Correct ICM play usually advises avoid narrow all-ins if there are players left with fewer chips than you.

5) If you have a medium-sized stack during bubble you should almost always avoid coin flips (or 60/40 all-ins) and fold instead.

6) Big stacks should often threaten middle stacks during bubble as they can only call with narrow ranges.


With that all said, at the end of the day, you made a final table and finished 6th, which is very good going and definitely something to build on!

Grats again! :congrats:

Thank you very much Tracid, I will study some basics of ICM before doing such crazy actions.
In fact, it comes in gap to SB/Hero but I believe it doesn't change the situation too much.
You are right there were 2 players with less chips than I was, and they could easily lose the tournament earlier and put me in 4th place, which is real much better than 6th, but, by the same token, BB could only have called me safely with 15% of range or even less.
Next time I will be more nitty in situations like this. Wonderful comment!

Regards;

Carlos 'Aballinamion' Barbosa

 

[fundiver199]

I would probably have done the same. Blind vs. blind you can jam pretty light, because you are up against only one completely random hand, and many people tend to fold to much. Also what is the alternativ here? Limp-fold? Limp-call? Or just fold and let him have it? Neither of that sounds great to me. So I guess, that if we limp, we are just hoping, he will allow us to do it and not jam?

 

[Tracid]

I would probably have done the same. Blind vs. blind you can jam pretty light, because you are up against only one completely random hand, and many people tend to fold to much. Also what is the alternativ here? Limp-fold? Limp-call? Or just fold and let him have it? Neither of that sounds great to me. So I guess, that if we limp, we are just hoping, he will allow us to do it and not jam?

Only thing with that is I'm not sure it was blind vs blind.. Carlos said there were two people to act behind his shove, so BB and...?

I'm still not clear if there was a limp/raise ahead or if Carlos was on the button...

 

[Aballinamion]

Only thing with that is I'm not sure it was blind vs blind.. Carlos said there were two people to act behind his shove, so BB and...?

I'm still not clear if there was a limp/raise ahead or if Carlos was on the button...

Sorry Tracid; my english is terrible a lot of times! When I said there were two players behind, I meant there were two players with a lower stack than me. (lol)
The action came in gap to the SB, where I was, and then there was only me and the BB to speak, the other players were not involved in the hand. I mentioned them just for the sake of knowing that they had smaller stacks compared to mine.
Sorry everybody, thanks a lot Fundiver199 for your comment, also very much appreciated.

Regards;

Carlos 'Aballinamion' Barbosa

 

[RVTR7777]

Hello good night friend, I will state my opinion, at this point 6 players championship, I would consider ICM A9 a hand that I would fold in my opinion.
luck at the tables.:stupido2::top:

 

[Tracid]

Sorry Tracid; my english is terrible a lot of times! When I said there were two players behind, I meant there were two players with a lower stack than me. (lol)
The action came in gap to the SB, where I was, and then there was only me and the BB to speak, the other players were not involved in the hand. I mentioned them just for the sake of knowing that they had smaller stacks compared to mine.
Sorry everybody, thanks a lot Fundiver199 for your comment, also very much appreciated.

Regards;

Carlos 'Aballinamion' Barbosa

Ah ok, in that case it's borderline really... If you base your decision on ICM- it's a fold, if you base your decision on hand strength heads up & how often it gets through- it's a shove..


Now the spot has been clarified I'd be interested in other people's opinions...

Personally I probably push there fairly often as well, depending on the size of the ladders..

Your English is great Carlos, something as complicated as poker must be extremely difficult to discuss in a second language, you are doing excellently!

 

[CullinanPoker]

You took a risk and got burned.

 

[oneybiggs]

I think you pushed at the right time,while you still had some stack worth pushing with,got to be in to win...vgg.

 

[TheDude6622]

There are times when it's correct and times that it's not. If it was folded to you, I say it's correct. You have one hand to get through and they woke up with a solid holding.

 

[fundiver199]

Hello good night friend, I will state my opinion, at this point 6 players championship, I would consider ICM A9 a hand that I would fold in my opinion.

luck at the tables.:stupido2::top:

We are only behind to AT-AK and 99-AA, which he will only have 6,4% of the time, and yet you want to give him a walk? ​

 

[popstani]

We are only behind to AT-AK and 99-AA, which he will only have 6,4% of the time, and yet you want to give him a walk? ​

Well, I’m not such a good player, I play micros and freerolls, but I had to disagree with you. He has almost 3,5 times bigger stack then us, and he can call easily call us with any two cards, and we risking 17B to win 2B. So I think that is not a really good move with A9o- not flopping well. My opinion is to let him have this hand, we have 17BB and plenty of time to cache better hand and better spots

 

[fundiver199]

Well, I’m not such a good player, I play micros and freerolls, but I had to disagree with you. He has almost 3,5 times bigger stack then us, and he can call easily call us with any two cards, and we risking 17B to win 2B. So I think that is not a really good move with A9o- not flopping well. My opinion is to let him have this hand, we have 17BB and plenty of time to cache better hand and better spots

If he call with any two cards, then we are jamming for value, since we are ahead of 94% of his range. If on the other hand he only call, when we are behind, then we pick up 2,0-2,5BB in blinds and antes uncontested 94% of the time. This is pretty meaningfull to a 17BB stack. It is also acceptable to limp into the pot, or maybe even put in a standard raise, but under no circumstance can we ever fold A9 in this spot. I think, you are vastly underestimating, how good a hand it actually is heads up.

Also there is no particular ICM-pressure here. We are the third shortest stack, and the big payjumps are in the top, so we need to chip up. No offense, but if you fold A9 in a spot like this, then it is going to be really difficult for you to win tournaments. You can not just sit and wait for the nuts, when play gets short handed.

 

[popstani]

If he call with any two cards, then we are jamming for value, since we are ahead of 94% of his range. If on the other hand he only call, when we are behind, then we pick up 2,0-2,5BB in blinds and antes uncontested 94% of the time. This is pretty meaningfull to a 17BB stack. It is also acceptable to limp into the pot, or maybe even put in a standard raise, but under no circumstance can we ever fold A9 in this spot. I think, you are vastly underestimating, how good a hand it actually is heads up.

Also there is no particular ICM-pressure here. We are the third shortest stack, and the big payjumps are in the top, so we need to chip up. No offense, but if you fold A9 in a spot like this, then it is going to be really difficult for you to win tournaments. You can not just sit and wait for the nuts, when play gets short handed.

I didn’t say that he need to wait nuts, waiting better spots is what I’m saying, and playing with A9o against biggest stack isn’t. A6o-A9o I will fold no matter what math or books says. I have some experience with final tables, and short stack play on them. With 17BB you have lots of time to play.

 

[fundiver199]

Its not ideal to have the chip leader on our direct left. But he is going to remain there for the rest of the tournament, so there is rarely going to be “a better spot”. Sure he might fold UTG, and then we can play a pot against someone else, when we are in the big blind. But other than that he will always be there to act after us, whenever we decide to play a hand.

This is not a complete hand history, and if the two short stacks were running on fumes and likely to bust in the next orbit, then it can be ok to nit up completely. But if they had like 10-15BB, we cannot just sit and wait for them to bust. We are getting blinded away, and maybe they get a dubble, and now suddenly we are the short stack.

 

[Aballinamion]

Its not ideal to have the chip leader on our direct left. But he is going to remain there for the rest of the tournament, so there is rarely going to be “a better spot”. Sure he might fold UTG, and then we can play a pot against someone else, when we are in the big blind. But other than that he will always be there to act after us, whenever we decide to play a hand.

This is not a complete hand history, and if the two short stacks were running on fumes and likely to bust in the next orbit, then it can be ok to nit up completely. But if they had like 10-15BB, we cannot just sit and wait for them to bust. We are getting blinded away, and maybe they get a dubble, and now suddenly we are the short stack.

Hello there fundiver199, thanks a lot for your ideas and comments!
Thanks everyone who posted here as well, specially the Dude, fundiver199 and Tracid, not in disregard to the others.
Before pushing SB x BB in gap I thought all of these stuff. I really don't think I would have plenty of time to wait for AT, AJ, or a pocke pair (also no guarantee that when these hands come, that I will beat the opponent).
We were in a six-max table in the FT, for a miracle 3 players were eliminated in just one hand and then the FT got to short. I play Cash 6-Max tables and I know how fast the blinds are, without antes! In 15 minutes, if I didn't play any hand I would be with 8-10 blinds very easily and then players could call me very lighter.
I don't know about you guys, but I love playing for ROI, not to be ITM. Of course I could be nitty and wait for the two other players to go out, and sometimes even more players are eliminated before me. I didn't want to wait, I wanted to take initiative upon the tournament and fight for the first position.
The players on my right were shorter stacked than me, so they will put a lot of pressure trying to double, not giving me room for it (2 shorter stacks players)
The players on my right were all deeper stacked than me (3 deeper stacks players), so I would not put a lot of pressure upon this guys. When I have 17 blinds, I can still hurt the stacks size of a player with 40-50 BB, this is another reason why I decided to push , in gap, SB x BB.
Now, if I have only 8-12 blinds, and decide to push, I will get a ton of lighting calls and ended up busted anyway.
I believe that what fundiver199 is trying to say here is that in the long run, this is the proper line we should take. The player in the BB wasn't a nitty player at all! Versus a nitty I would never push A9o here because the chances of losing is greater.
The player in the BB was a very decent/competent LAG, that in my opinion, would call with a lighter range than usual because it was really the Cheap Leader with 62 BB.
The same way it called with 99, it could have call me with 22-KK, a bunch of broadways and it wouldn't change so much, I still have 30% equity, versus anything it has, except AT+ and AA.
Means that I will be taking this pot down 30% of times, which is an awesome number to me. Unfortunately, it wasn't this time, but hey: we cannot be results oriented.

Regards;

Carlos 'Aballinamion' Barbosa

 

[Alekxandrovi3]

On the A9 with sb can play a limp. On the A9 out of position with a short stack it right. If somebody after you raises you then it is possible to hope that the rest is up to you will fold their hands. One by one your hand is strong enough. Sometimes it is better to wait for a stronger hand all in. Because as you climb up the table and earn more.

 

[fundiver199]

Limping in from SB is certainly a viable option with 17BB. If I limp or jam will depend very much on, what dynamics I have with the player in BB. If he is overly aggressive and abusing his stack, then I dont really want to limp A9, because its not quite strong enough to be a good trapping hand. It will be ahead of the range, he jam, but its not in great shape, unless he has A2-A8 or 9X, and we are going to bust a decent amount of the time.

So if limp-calling is the realistic alternativ to giving him a walk, then I prefer to jam. I would prefer, our stack was slightly shorter, and/or our hand slightly stronger, but jamming is one of the few things, that can get even the chip leader to back off, so we can pick up some chips, and I am sure, its +EV with A9.

If he is a more calm player and wont jam most of his range against our limp, then I prefer limping and playing a small pot out of position. The only thing, I dont like here, is to make a mini-raise or something. This can work from any other seat, because we have position on BB. But if we do it from SB, he can call us with almost any two cards, and then we have just bloated the pot in a situation, where he have all the advantages postflop.

 

[rcpeck]

I'm definitely not folding, and my push / bet / call decision comes down to my reads on the BB and how he's been playing with his big stack.

 

[akmost]

Well, I’m not such a good player, I play micros and freerolls, but I had to disagree with you. He has almost 3,5 times bigger stack then us, and he can call easily call us with any two cards, and we risking 17B to win 2B. So I think that is not a really good move with A9o- not flopping well. My opinion is to let him have this hand, we have 17BB and plenty of time to cache better hand and better spots

I agree with you that we have a healthy stack to play on but I really don't know how the distribution of the chips was at that particular spot.

We can't just open jam BvB the absolute monster hands, we also need to set an image for future plays against the same opponent , for example we must have some open limps/folds if we get 2bet and some open limps/jams against the BB. If the OP could run it in ICMzer (you can run one HH/day for free on the site) I think the call here should be super marginal(ICM and not $EV)

IMHO OP, I guess, he could easily jam profitable more than 50% range - I really don't know the precise percentage-, CL can't find easily the call here and risk ~30% of his stack in a flip. Chip leading FT is a key element to win MTTs.

ps.Nice spot for discussion

 

[DaveE]

If he call with any two cards, then we are jamming for value, since we are ahead of 94% of his range. If on the other hand he only call, when we are behind, then we pick up 2,0-2,5BB in blinds and antes uncontested 94% of the time. This is pretty meaningfull to a 17BB stack. It is also acceptable to limp into the pot, or maybe even put in a standard raise, but under no circumstance can we ever fold A9 in this spot. I think, you are vastly underestimating, how good a hand it actually is heads up.

Also there is no particular ICM-pressure here. We are the third shortest stack, and the big payjumps are in the top, so we need to chip up. No offense, but if you fold A9 in a spot like this, then it is going to be really difficult for you to win tournaments. You can not just sit and wait for the nuts, when play gets short handed.

I'm with you here :top: Occasionally you'll run into a big hand but you can get calls from worse. Apply pressure when possible.

BTW I went out in 11th in the same game shoving KJs in a VERY similar situation as the OP.

 

[Entrik]

The blinds solve almost everything) So here 50% 50

 

[quant1986]

I think it needs icmizer to run some calculations. If the two short stacks are left with 1BB, I believe this is easy ICM fold. But not clear cut to me if their stacks are like 6-10 BB