Adjusted Big Blind

dj11

dj11

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OK, we have determined that we get equivalent info from either system. But I want more clarity.

I, being an M fan, wonder what advantage using the ABB system might offer. After all I am slogging along and we have at least 3 successful players advocating the ABB approach. So if there is some advantage I want to know about it.

Not really needing another thread can we use this very general situation and determine anything?

Pot size is 10K after blinds and ante's (if any). We are short handed but does that matter?

My stack is 120 K, big stack at this table is 280K, small is 35K

M says I have an M of 12
Big is 28
small is 3.5

Others are still hanging around, for arguement sake lets assume we are at the last 3 or 4 tables and each is shorthanded.

ABB seems (as far as I can figure) says I have
an ABB of 17.999 = 18 [Stack divided by ABB (6666)]
big is 42.0042 = 42
small here is 5.25 = 5 (like to think a fat 5)

Again, M fan, I know that at 12 I'm not quite into serious concern yet, but also know it won't be long at a short handed table. While green strictly speaking, it is late in a tourney and I'm feeling a little yellow..

I know we would both think we want to avoid the big stack, and taking on the small stack is gonna be risky. I use my M to help me determine what I might be able to do (shove/Fold/setmine),w/e.

Is there some chart regarding ABB that is as useful as Harrington's Color zones?
What do you ABB fans use as a guideline once you figure out your ABB?
What ADJUSTED GUIDELINE IS THERE?

I have this fuzzy feeling that ABB may play after some bets have added to the pot, where M does nothing. Am I unusually fuzzy brained with this notion?
 
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katymaty

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Maybe 3 charts side by side to compare the differences would be helpful

the number of blinds, M or ABB indicates what


Then 1 for Blinds and ABB
 

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LarkMarlow

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Maybe 3 charts side by side to compare the differences would be helpful...the number of blinds, M or ABB indicates what. Then 1 for Blinds and ABB

I think that would be fantastic!

I have this fuzzy feeling that ABB may play after some bets have added to the pot, where M does nothing.

I'm curious about this as well.
 
cjatud2012

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One of the things that I don't like about M is that some people promote using the "M-Zone" chart that was posted above. Gus Hansen in his book suggests that push/folding starts at 7M, others even suggest it at 10M. To me, I just don't know what to do.

With ABB (I still like to call it effective bb, lol, but that seems confusing, so I will stick with ABB, which has a short abbreviation anyway), there aren't any charts like what you see with the M-Zone per se. However I generally apply the same strategy I would if I were just counting bb's - at around 10bb's or less (12bb's for some people), if I am entering the pot, I am going all-in, unless I have a very good reason. That reason could be that you have a monster and you want to induce a bet (although that can also be argued as a good reason), or say you're bvb and your opponent is extremely tight, you can just min-raise or 2.25x raise. This will generally achieve the same fold equity while also allowing you to get away when your opponent has a monster.

When you get near to 5 ABB's you really need to be getting your chips in, especially in late position. In a MTT, if it's folded to me in the SB, BTN, or even the CO, I will usually push any two cards, depending on the looseness of the blinds. In a STT you can usually push any two cards from the SB, very wide from the BTN, and about 50% from the CO, depending on the blinds of course. When we do this counting by bb's, our goal is to prevent ourselves from blinding below ~3.5bb's, because if we push a stack of that size our opponent is getting 2:1 on a call. This is probably less important if we're counting by ABB's however, because most opponents fail to account for the antes, and interpret your push just in terms of bb's. So while you're ABB is about 3 your actual bb's could be 4 or even 4.5, and you won't be called as wide by a random opponent.

Anything in between is going to depend on your opponent, your stack size, and your hand (probably the least important factor). For example, if it's folded to me in the SB and I have 8 ABB, that is almost always a shove. But if you're in the CO with 8 ABB, then your push range might be 15-20% depending on the blinds - we're pushing tighter if they're loose, looser if they're tight. Generally you're also going to push tighter than that in a STT. So that's a pretty significant difference, just because our position is different.

So I guess my guidelines would be 10 ABB's or less, you push if you want to enter the pot. With 5 ABB's or less, you are trying to steal the blinds with a wide range to maintain your stack, and it usually doesn't matter what your cards are. Anything in between you have to use your judgment.
 
cjatud2012

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I have this fuzzy feeling that ABB may play after some bets have added to the pot, where M does nothing. Am I unusually fuzzy brained with this notion?

Well not exactly, you can still figure what your M should be if you fold, just like you could figure out what your ABB is. It's actually very important to be able to do one or the other, because you need to be able to determine if you can mount a comeback should you fold your hand. I'm not sure how you would do it for M, but for ABB (Bwammo taught me this one!) if you can fold post-flop and still have 8 ABB's or so, you are probably okay because you can go through the blinds and be more than okay - plus, if the blinds happen to go up before you hit them, you'll have 4-5 ABB's left, which is usually enough to get some fold equity.

Hope that makes sense, let me know what can be clarified, and maybe a pro will hop in here and share some insight at some point.
 
Bwammo

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Personally, I actually use all 3 types of stack measurement during the course of a tournament. ABBs work well for me on a hand to hand basis, while I consider M when thinking about if I have enough chips to raise a good hand from EP/MP or if I should simply be shoving. I also use standard BBs, like when determining exactly how much fold equity I have which comes in handy when you're on a bubble to something and there are shorter players than you left in the tournament (roughly half our stack or less). For instance, if you have 5 ABB, you have 3M, but you have 7-8 standard BBs. If we lose 1 round of chips we will be at 3.5 ABB, 2M, and still have 5 standard BBs. We know that 5 standard BBs creates fold equity simply because we know we've seen players folding to minraises and 3xbb raises in the past...so a 5xbb raise still creates the impulse to fold. This means back when we have 5 ABB (or 3M), we are allowed to wait a little longer before hitting the crazy shoving ranges that are often associated with a stack that small.

As far as an ABB guideline goes...typically I teach students to aim for the all in button when sitting around 4-5 ABB in almost any unopened pot. Tournament structures will change a lot of what I recommend, but generally having 6-8 ABB in LP situations also creates a shove situation (there are MANY other factors to consider, this is just a general rule). 8-10 ABB is worthy of almost always shoving ATC from the SB in an unopened pot. 8-12 ABB in LP bounces between shoves and tiny tiny raises preflop. 12 ABB+ and now we can do whatever we want.

As CJ mentioned earlier, I typically leave myself 8 ABBs once the dust settles because I know I'm fully capable of winning every tournament I'm still in if I have 8 ABBs. This means when I'm up around 12 ABBs I'm leaving myself 4 ABBs to splash around with...either preflop or postflop.
 
Bwammo

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I have this fuzzy feeling that ABB may play after some bets have added to the pot, where M does nothing. Am I unusually fuzzy brained with this notion?

What exactly do you mean by this?

It's always important to know how many chips remain in your stack in comparison to the blind level...whichever system you choose to use will suffice in most cases.
 
dj11

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What exactly do you mean by this?


LOL--- If I knew exactly what I meant it wouldn't be fuzzy........

While some have mentioned not like the Harrington color zones, they seem to offer the same guidance in a general form. You who prefer ABB seem to have some notion, similar to the color zones, but as yet undefined.

We 'M' fans can determine the difference that any 'M' in EP will not play the same in LP , and that even in the color zones there are degrees of M'ness.
 
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dj11

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'M' was given it's name by Paul Magriel, who apparently did not invent the system, but rather, just gave it 'rules'. The idea is to figure out how we are sitting, situationally, during a tourney. It may have been from the same seed which also developed into ABB. The big dif that I can see so far is that 'M' is pretty well defined as a system. It's flaws would be how we interpret and act upon what we see. But it is a guideline and I can't imagine ABB being anything much else than a guideline, albeit less well defined (love someone to point me to a more precise definition).

Harrington is associated with 'M' mainly because
his books deal with it in depth. He came up with 'Q' which is basically where you stand in relation to others in a tourney. Your stack vs average stack.

He deals with the whole notion of M's and Q's and Effective M's, and inflection points in HoH v2, section 9.


In the classic
Green zone, (M >20), I can do most anything. I have good FE with any move I make, I have a healthy stack and in general am not to concerned about any villains.

In the Yellow zone (M b/t 10/20) I have to be considering many more scenarios, including whether I can get villain, or he can get me to commit my whole stack. (Sorry, Yellow just doesn't show up well)

In the classic Orange zone (M b/t 6/10) I am rapidly losing any FE and thus the power to be powerful.

In the red zone (M 1-5) I'm looking for a position shove, ATC, first in, is the guideline. I have nearly no FE, and the only advantage I really have is acting first.


In the dead zone (M doesn't matter anymore) I am praying for cards.


Of course these are generalizations, and are not in depth. But there is a definition and that leads to talking points. So far we have not found any 'chart' describing ABB actions and when the changes are.

FWIW, I have learned that it is better to move the actions HoH describes up a few 'M's". For instance, shoving with better FE in the orange zone (typical red zone shove) has better results. Other orange zone moves often are better done in the Yellow zone. And in general, tho my stack might suggest I am immune while in the green zone, I'm not a complete idiot (usually), and by and large prefer (nit)picking more ripe fruit.
 
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LarkMarlow

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'M' was given it's name by Paul Magriel, who apparently did not invent the system, but rather, just gave it 'rules'. more precise definition)...Harrington is associated with 'M' mainly because his books deal with it in depth.
 
Thanks so much, dj, for not only the history of M but further details about the colored zones. I especially liked your adjustments, which made the use of M more clear. I've been looking at them from an ABB perspective but hardly have enough experience to create a similar range.
 
An aside: Good old Paul Magriel. Haven't heard much about him in recent years; wonder how he's doing.
  
He came up with 'Q' which is basically where you stand in relation to others in a tourney. Your stack vs average stack.He deals with the whole notion of M's and Q's and Effective M's, and inflection points in HoH v2, section 9
 
I'm actually beginning to enjoy this head-spinning sensation. :D

I have not yet read HoH v2, so what in the world is Q? Does that have to do with effective stack size? And now comes along another term, "Effective M". Is that related to Q?
 
cjatud2012

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Q is the ratio of your stack to the average stack. So if you have t30k and the average is t20k, you have a Q of 1.5. It's just something else to consider as you're making your decisions. Like, if your M is 10 but your Q is like 0.5 or less then you still need to be looking for good spots to chip up.
 
dj11

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Effective M deals with short handed tables. If M deals with full tables (9 seats), then if your M is 10, you can sort of figure you could go shopping and 90 hands later you would be out of money. If there are only 5 seats left then that M only represents 50 hands. Very dynamic because by that time people are dropping like flies, or the tables will combine.

There is actually a formula, HoH vs pg 277:

Effective M = (Basic M) x (# of players left/10[9?]) I add the [9] because there are nit pickers out there, and a true M would be based on a 10 seat full table. These are gross approximations.

ex Basic M= 10
players at the table = 6

Effective M = M x .6 = Effective M = 6

Haven't read the HoH's ? :eek: They easily pay for themselves.

If during any tourney you ever check the standings, and compare your stack against average, you are using Q but did not know it had a name. While it might cause you to kick things up a bit, or pay more attention, there are few places where it will dictate an action.
 
LarkMarlow

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Effective M deals with short handed tables. If M deals with full tables (9 seats), then if your M is 10, you can sort of figure you could go shopping and 90 hands later you would be out of money. If there are only 5 seats left then that M only represents 50 hands. Very dynamic because by that time people are dropping like flies, or the tables will combine.
 
Great stuff. So, to my way of thinking, M and ABB are complementary tools. With M you know how many hands you have left to make a serious move and with ABB you know how many "real big blinds", as Bwammo also calls ABBs in his vids, you have to do it with. Make sense?

Haven't read the HoH's ?

Thanks for pointing out what a serious leak this is in my poker library. I'm halfway through HoH vol1 now and vol2 will of course follow.
 
If during any tourney you ever check the standings, and compare your stack against average, you are using Q but did not know it had a name. While it might cause you to kick things up a bit, or pay more attention, there are few places where it will dictate an action.

:cool:
 
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Interesting discussion - relevant to this day - and a bit eerie too, written just weeks before Black Friday.
 
dj11

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Interesting discussion - relevant to this day - and a bit eerie too, written just weeks before Black Friday.

I just re-read this whole thread. In this particular case, thanks sim metric for finding and resurrecting it. I found it a fascinating re-read.

Most of us who posted ITT, have internalised the process of dealing with chip counts/tourney position. I do always keep track of where I am in a tourney, it is just part of the game now. I don't make much of the math involved, like I said it is internalized and part of the 'feel' we get as all of us develop our game.

But for those newer to the game, who had never thought much of these concepts, this is (was) and important development.
 
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