Is 55 better than 66?

[Xmaster]

55 and 66 have the same chance to make a straight...

 

[6bet me]

55 and 66 have the same chance to make a straight...

If players were playing ATC, then maybe, but in reality, players are selective when choosing starting hands. I'll go over all my logic with you and you can point out which parts you disagree with:

I know that AA, 22 and KK are least likely to make straights, since there are only 2 combinations of straights involving them (22 has A2345 and 23456, KK has TJQKA and 9TJQK, AA has A2345 and TJQKA).

Then 33 and QQ have 3 combinations of straights (33 has A2345, 23456 and 34567, QQ has 89TJQ, 9TJQK and TJQKA).

Then 44 and JJ have 4 combinations of straights (44 has A2345, 23456, 34567 and 45678 and JJ has 789TJ, 89TJQ, 9TJQK and TJQKA).

Then 55, 66, 77, 88, 99 and TT have 5 combinations of straights each.

So it would appear as if 55 and 66 are equally likely to make straights... but you must now take blockers into account and the villain's likely range.

Which of these straights is the villain more likely to have? Is the villain more likely to have a "wheel" (A2345) or a 6789T straight? If you think that wheel straights are more common, then 55 acts as a more significant blocker than 66. And if it's a more significant blocker towards straights, doesn't that make it better in that aspect?

I'm talking about the probability of making straights and the probability of blocking straights, not just the former.

 

[Xmaster]

If players were playing ATC, then maybe, but in reality, players are selective when choosing starting hands. I'll go over all my logic with you and you can point out which parts you disagree with:

I know that AA, 22 and KK are least likely to make straights, since there are only 2 combinations of straights involving them (22 has A2345 and 23456, KK has TJQKA and 9TJQK, AA has A2345 and TJQKA).

Then 33 and QQ have 3 combinations of straights (33 has A2345, 23456 and 34567, QQ has 89TJQ, 9TJQK and TJQKA).

Then 44 and JJ have 4 combinations of straights (44 has A2345, 23456, 34567 and 45678 and JJ has 789TJ, 89TJQ, 9TJQK and TJQKA).

Then 55, 66, 77, 88, 99 and TT have 5 combinations of straights each.

So it would appear as if 55 and 66 are equally likely to make straights... but you must now take blockers into account and the villain's likely range.

Which of these straights is the villain more likely to have? Is the villain more likely to have a "wheel" (A2345) or a 6789T straight? If you think that wheel straights are more common, then 55 acts as a more significant blocker than 66. And if it's a more significant blocker towards straights, doesn't that make it better in that aspect?

I'm talking about the probability of making straights and the probability of blocking straights, not just the former.

you said that "...as well as increasing the chance that you'll get a straight" and that wasn't true (if you meant in comparison to 66). But know you said "55, 66, 77, 88, 99 and TT have 5 combinations of straights each" and I agree with you.

To the blockers: I don't understand why you assume that 12345 is more likely then a 6789T? And why does 55 acts as a blocker for wheels? If you have 55 and the board is 1234x you have a straight yourself. Of course it's less likely that he has a straight to, but that's also true for 66 and a 2345x board. You don't need to block it.

Maybe I understand you wrong, but I think, that I wouldn't play a suited Ace if I wouldn't play an suited connector like 67s and I don't play for example 23s normally. So it's even more likely that i make a 6789T straight than a wheel, because I can only can make a wheel when I hold a suited ace or 45s (and low pairs, but that's also true for the 6789T)-> Normally if the board brings an ace, I don't have a wheel. But I play 67s,78s,89s and 9Ts, 68s, 79s, 8Ts etc., so here there is no limitation. The board can bring a 6 or a 7 or an 8 or a 9 or a T: I can always have the straight.

Did my thoughts reflect what you meant?

 

[Vadim Kudimov]

I'm sorry for before the message.
I wanted to ask you how best to play the hands below the 1010 to flop out of position? check-raise or raise.

 

[DunningKruger]

I'm talking about how 55 would fare against a playable villain's range postflop.

55 fares a hair better than 66 against a range of A2-A5 and nothing else (the difference is less than 0.07% in overall equity vs suited Ax 5 and lower) just like 72o fares better than 33 against a range of exactly 44-77. 72o isn't a better hand than 33 of course, if anyone here was going to start thinking that. The problem is that in neither case can you ever presume such a range from your opponent without conceding the possibility of at least some other hands in there as well. No one ever really folds AA preflop for instance, and as soon as you add even AA by itself to that range of Ax hands then 55 performs worse than 66, and worsens further as the range widens. Anyway the answer to the question in the topic title is no.

 

[baklagan]

The reason why A5 better then A6 is that in case of A5 you have 2 cards from the wheel (straight from A to 5). Also i don't see any logic behind your theory that 55 better then 66. Probably 55 is your lucky cards,then maybe they better just for you

 

[lauraPOKER]

Very interesting. Thanks for posting that. Most of my small pairs go into the muck. So really 55&66 are about neck and neck. I'm going to start playing these more.

HAha.. for me, A5 is better that A6 beause A5 can make a straight... whereas A6 can´t.

 

[Poker Orifice]

HAha.. for me, A5 is better that A6 beause A5 can make a straight... whereas A6 can´t.

but what if the board comes 789-T-X ?

Or if it comes A23-4-5 (you will lose with the A5 vs. A6)

 

[canabero]

A6 is better than A5, but A5 has more chances to beat A6, than A6 against A7.
Checking numbers ( for nerds):

A5 vs A6:

A5: 24%
A6: 40%

A6 vs A7

A6: 49%
A7: 23%

 

[KLDUFF1987]

To me I don't really like either 55 or 66 mostly because that when and or if I shove or call a raise, I am mostly 80% dominated by a bigger pair/over cards what I don't like med pairs only 1010+ as I am a tight player so makes no sense for me to play 55 or 66

 

[Four Dogs]

To me I don't really like either 55 or 66 mostly because that when and or if I shove or call a raise, I am mostly 80% dominated by a bigger pair/over cards what I don't like med pairs only 1010+ as I am a tight player so makes no sense for me to play 55 or 66

I think you're being a little paranoid. Yes, when facing a raise with a small pair you usually are facing a bigger pair or overcards and 80% might actually be a little low, but you're not dominated in any sense of the word. When facing 2 overs, you're actually a bit ahead and other small pairs are often more then willing to muck when facing a cbet on a high board (as your fear of playing any pair under TT demonstrates). As for shoving, small pairs are great isolation hands when facing a shove by a small stack in both cash games and tournaments, especially with the added dead money from antes limpers and callers. I'm not suggesting that you make a habit of this, and folding weak pairs to heavy action is usually correct, but I think you're losing a lot of value by simply discarding these hands without regard to the situation. There's a time and a place for everything and every hand.

 

[Kekule]

Both 55 and 66 can make straights equally...

55 can make straights A-9
66 can make straights 2-10

It is the same amount.

In fact pocket pairs 55 through TT can all make straights equally.

Then JJ and 44 are equal (for straight making purposes strictly)
QQ and 33 are equal
KK and 22 are equal
AA is the worst pocket pair for making straights.

Also, if you are hoping your pocket pair makes a straight, then I'd have to say you are banking on the worst possible feature of a pocket pair.

 

[AlbieTross]

Like many others said, if nobody hits the board the higher pair wins, so in similar situations even having a one card higher pair is good to have making 66 more ideal than 55 in my eyes.

 

[Foldemz]

My theory is that 55 is better than 66 for the same reason that A5 is better than A6: it is more likely to make a straight. Think about it: every straight involves either a 5 or a 10, so if you have 55, you block out the possibility of other people having straights, as well as increasing the chance that you'll get a straight.

In addition to that, the poker program "Cepheus" is more likely to raise 55 than 66. This is the only exception to the general rule that Cepheus is more likely to raise higher pockets than lower pockets (eg. more likely to raise 88 than 77, more likely to raise 99 than 88, etc.). So it seems that Cepheus prefers 55 to 66.

What do you think? Is 55 better than 66 in a cash game?

What's up, bud?

I see what your thought process is here.
However, 55 & 66 have the same overall probability of hitting a straight.

For 55 it's A-5 on the low end and 5-9 on the high end.
For 66 it's 2-6 on the low end 6-10 on the high end.

This gives both hands a span of 9 cards (or 5 straight possibilities each)


As far as blocking straight possibilities go, they block the same amout of possibilities.


55 will add some blocks to possible straight draws ranging from A-9 (9 cards)
66 will add some blocks to possible straight draws ranging from 2-10 (9 cards)

They even share a lot of blockers, the only difference is 66 is higher and will win more often.

Conclusion:

66 is the superior hand for a number of reasons. It's higher and will win more often, it can hit a better flush, and it has the same probability of making a straight.

Every straight really does contains either a 5 or 10. However, they both are in the same amount of straights.

55 straight possibilities:

A2345
23456
34567
45678
56789

66 straight possibilities:

23456
34567
45678
56789
678910

 

[Bob23bk]

Interesting thread! :top:

No one ever really folds AA preflop for instance

I've folded AA preflop :stupid:

A6 is better than A5, but A5 has more chances to beat A6, than A6 against A7.
Checking numbers ( for nerds):

A5 vs A6:

A5: 24%
A6: 40%

A6 vs A7

A6: 49%
A7: 23%

I don't understand these numbers at all :stupido3:

 

[DunningKruger]

No one ever really folds AA preflop for instance

I've folded AA preflop :stupid:

That doesn't actually surprise me in the least. There's always the exception that proves the rule, after all.

 

[IrishLuck777]

run a sim

 

[Foldemz]

Interesting thread! :top:




I don't understand these numbers at all :stupido3:

That's because they're wrong.

A5c 27%
A6h 40% (13% difference)
Tie 33%

A6h 26%
A7c 49% (23% difference)
Tie 25%


The difference is less because of the possibility of a straight being made with A5

 

[jozsef1990]

I think the bye is good at 66 and 55, I would not give any cash raised one dolárnál Full review if you throw more to call