1/2NL Live. Looking for "That is just idiotic. Please don't EVER do that again" leaks

R

RickAversion

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Mar 2, 2013
Total posts
597
Chips
0
1/2NL Live. Looking for "That is just idiotic. Please don't EVER do that again" leaks

Seeking feedback on my 1/2NL Live session.
I understand the game is VERY nuanced (stack size, texture, Villain styles, etc)
But, if I said I go ALL-IN every time I get 7 2.
Or if I play 80% of my hands.
You don't need much more detail and context to tell me to stop doing that.
This is the level of information I am seeking.

You must crawl before you walk.
I am looking for "That is just idiotic. Please don't EVER do that again" leaks in my game.

For starters, I am a passive limping fish who can't beat 1/2NL.
I never bet, and I never re-raise. I always limp.
If I have a strong hand, THEN I can play TAG and bet accordingly.
But, I am VERY passive/limp pre-flop.
Books all say the opposite, but then I go actually play, and I always limp/call.
I know I need to address this.

Disclaimer: Please do not tell me you need more information in order to help. There is NO MORE INFORMATION. Please do not reply telling me you can't help b/c there is limited information. I know. This is all I am capable of observing and/or transcribing at this point in my game. THERE IS NO MORE INFORMATION. If you can't offer any general insight, please do not reply.

Again, I am looking for HUGE fundamental leaks and GLARING errors.
I am looking for "That is just idiotic. Please don't EVER do that again" leaks in my game.

With that out of the way, let's get started:

=======================================================================

First, I tracked my fold rate
70 hands total.
I called/played in 16 hands.
16/70 = 23%

Is there a GLARING error with this number?
Does this deserve a comment of "That is just idiotic. Please don't EVER do that again" ?? Yes or No?

=======================================================================

These are the 16 hands I limped/played:
10/J suited
9/10 OTB
AQ
JQ suited
AK
QJ
10 J
AK
A 10 suited
55
66
AJ
K5 suited
KJ
89 suited
AQ

With ZERO context (position, etc), are there a GLARING errors with these hands?
Do any cards above deserve a comment of "That is just idiotic. Please don't EVER do that again" ?? Yes or No?

=======================================================================

I have several hands I want to discuss.
I will post one at a time.

Please read the disclaimer one more time before proceeding.
There is limited information, I have a terrible memory, and I wrote down all I could during the hand.

Again, I am looking for HUGE fundamental leaks and GLARING errors.

HAND 1
Hero gets AK.
I call $2.
V1 bets $15
V2 raises $50.
I fold pre-flop.

Does this deserve a comment of "That is just idiotic. Please don't EVER do that again" ?? Yes or No?
 
duggs

duggs

Killing me softly
Silver Level
Joined
Jul 28, 2011
Total posts
9,512
Awards
2
Chips
0
dont limp ever.
 
H

hffjd2000

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 6, 2014
Total posts
2,329
Chips
0
Oks. Do you have a solid understanding about starting hands? Starting hands according to positions. I noticed and I quote, "With ZERO context (position, etc)".
Do you know about troubled hands? etc.
Your fold rate is fine for me as well as your example hand.
Good luck...
 
R

RickAversion

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Mar 2, 2013
Total posts
597
Chips
0
Here are 3 more hands played by a beginner.
I am looking for HUGE fundamental leaks and GLARING errors.
Stuff that prompts a reaction of "That is just idiotic. Please don't EVER do that again"

There is no more information.
If you can not offer advice based on limited information, please do not reply.

HAND 2
=====
Hero gets A Q.
V1 bets $12.
Hero calls along with many others.
Flop = 7 3 5
V bets $20
Hero folds.

HAND 3
=====
Hero gets A K
V1 is all in with $65
Hero calls
Flop does not have A or K.
All 5 cards are low cards.
V1 pairs a 5 on the board.

HAND 4
=====
Hero gets A 10 suited
Hero calls $7
Flop is K 3 8
V bets $7
Hero folds
 
Jblocher1

Jblocher1

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Nov 20, 2012
Total posts
2,645
Chips
0
Stop limping premiums please.... That deserves a comment because its just idiotic ;) the AQ Hand.... You don't want all these people in the hand with u. You want one or two people at the most.... So u should be 3 betting. AK is a 3 bet 100% of the time.... Are you playing with scared money?
 
R

RickAversion

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Mar 2, 2013
Total posts
597
Chips
0
Scared? Well, this is just play money.
I could lose $10,000 and it wouldn't affect my life an iota.
So, I buy in 1/2NL for $200 and view it as entertainment costs.

That said, I don't want to buy in for $200 and leave after 30 mins, either.
I also don't want to do multiple buy ins (when I KNOW I am a EV- player)
and develop a $1000/night gambling problem.

So, maybe it's a little bit scared?

But, I probably don't know how to play properly yet.
 
Last edited:
R

RickAversion

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Mar 2, 2013
Total posts
597
Chips
0
Stop limping premiums please.... That deserves a comment because its just idiotic ;) the AQ Hand.... You don't want all these people in the hand with u. You want one or two people at the most.... So u should be 3 betting. AK is a 3 bet 100% of the time.... Are you playing with scared money?

Thanks.

Based on almost no contextual information given,
what would be a better GENERAL way to play the AQ hand?
You're saying I should have 3-bet?
About how much would you 3-bet a $12 bet? Ballpark. $24? $36? $100?

In general, I am a passive limping fish.
I never bet, and I never re-raise. I always limp.
If I have a strong hand, THEN I can play TAG and bet accordingly.

But, when I have no idea of the the outcome (pre-flop)
I am VERY passive/limp pre-flop.
B/c odds are, my AQ will miss anyway.
So it seems like throwing money away.
Yes, I only bet when I have a hand.
Books all say the opposite, but then I go actually play, and I always limp/call.
I know I need to address this.
 
R

RickAversion

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Mar 2, 2013
Total posts
597
Chips
0
In the following 7 hands, I lost a total of $2
Are these generally good or bad folds?

No additional info is available.
Any feedback on any particular hand is welcome.

Anything played correctly?
Anything blatantly played badly?

HAND 5
=====
Hero gets J 6 OTB
V1 bets $7
Hero folds

HAND 6
=====
Hero gets pocket 5's
Hero calls $5
V1 raises $25
Hero folds

HAND 7
=====
Hero gets pocket 7's
Hero calls $2
2 all ins pre-flop.
$85 to call so Hero folds.
(K J J was the flop)

HAND 8
=====
Hero gets pocket A J
Hero BETS $15
V1 goes all in.
Hero folds


HAND 9
=====
Hero gets pocket KJ
Hero limps.
Flop = 4 9 3
V1 bets $7
V2 raises to $18
Hero folds (Lost $2)

HAND 10
=====
Hero gets AQ
Hero BETS $11
V1 raises $25
Hero folds
Flop = 3 3 10
V2 wins with 7 3


HAND 11
=====
Hero gets A6 OTB
V1 bets $12
Hero folds. 3 callers.
After the flop, they all checked.
I could have bet on the button, had I stayed in.
Is this why you stay in with weaker hands when OTB?
 
H

hffjd2000

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 6, 2014
Total posts
2,329
Chips
0
Fine hand examples for me.
I just noticed little leaks on starting hands and position theories.
 
Jblocher1

Jblocher1

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Nov 20, 2012
Total posts
2,645
Chips
0
Thanks.

Based on almost no contextual information given,
what would be a better GENERAL way to play the AQ hand?
You're saying I should have 3-bet?
About how much would you 3-bet a $12 bet? Ballpark. $24? $36? $100?

In general, I am a passive limping fish.
I never bet, and I never re-raise. I always limp.
If I have a strong hand, THEN I can play TAG and bet accordingly.

But, when I have no idea of the the outcome (pre-flop)
I am VERY passive/limp pre-flop.
B/c odds are, my AQ will miss anyway.
So it seems like throwing money away.
Yes, I only bet when I have a hand.
Books all say the opposite, but then I go actually play, and I always limp/call.
I know I need to address this.

If he bets 12 I think you're fine 3 betting 3x the raise so 36 works for me. You have to recognize that while most of the time you miss the flop (roughly 70%) THE SAME GOES FOR OUR VILLAIN. The fact you won't always hit flops is just part of the game, developing post flop skills is key.

It's good that you recognize your passive and a fish... That can be fixed. The first step to stopping it is identifying the issue :)
 
newbie in training

newbie in training

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Sep 29, 2013
Total posts
1,043
Chips
0
imo they seem to be agressive retards going all in with crap so you shouldent be folding hands like QA or QK pf for a 5 bb raise or i know i wouldent hardly ever unless its very special circustances

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I537 using Tapatalk 2
 
S

Sneaky Feet

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 2, 2014
Total posts
583
Chips
0
Stop playing immediately. Read polished poker volume 1 in the cash forum by John Anhalt. It will change your game completely. Who cares how much money you invest, it's way more fun to win than lose.
 
M

mrbiggles

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Apr 7, 2014
Total posts
31
Chips
0
Thanks.
But, when I have no idea of the the outcome (pre-flop)
I am VERY passive/limp pre-flop.
B/c odds are, my AQ will miss anyway.
So it seems like throwing money away.
Yes, I only bet when I have a hand.
Books all say the opposite, but then I go actually play, and I always limp/call.
I know I need to address this.

This is exactly how I think & the latest book I read just seems like insanity when they say you should 3bet certain hands that personally I have been folding.

I played for a while doing what you said above - very cautiously & won a small amount over about 4000 hands.

I then went and read a book & bet how they recommended, far more aggressive & lost fairly quickly.

I do not think I fully understand the power of the position.
If I am at the SB, surely the chance of the BB having a great hand is the same chance the button has (hope I have the terminology right)
I get that the later you are in the table, it allows you to see what everyone else in front of you is doing.

I find the most depressing thing about this game is when I get something like AA & everyone folds.

I am currently a losing player but I would love to change that. I think I have learnt enough to make me worse at playing than someone that knows nothing.

The other thing that amazes me is when someone says, over the long term, if I make 2BB per hour then that is pretty good, yet the swings & risks are so massive for such little gains. I would of thought it would be much higher than that.
 
M

mannaconda26

Rising Star
Silver Level
Joined
Apr 1, 2014
Total posts
23
Chips
0
IMO It does look like you're playing with scared money. The hands you mentioned seem like you couldnt catch a break and had a bad run of cards, but it is still more profitable to play your premium hands strongly and if you want play your weaker hands more timidly. You should look into pot odds and position to see what hands are good for calling preflop and hoping to catch something big with a little money invested. It does get discouraging when your playing hand like AK AQ KQ and raising preflop and missing everytime, but if you understand your pot odds sometimes your two overcards plus possible draws might make you a favorite even if your opponent has a pair already (even though most of the time hes bluffing) Try and read about calculating outs on flops that youve missed, once you know how its quite easy to make better plays. hope this helps
 
Carl Trooper

Carl Trooper

Degenerate Idiot
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 23, 2012
Total posts
3,381
Awards
6
Chips
0
dont limp ever.

What? No.

Limping is a great strategy to catch hyper aggressive players and isolate them with other limpers.

It depends on the table. If I am in a very aggressive game and am EP with a big pair, depending on the table I will limp. It can be very profitable.
 
duggs

duggs

Killing me softly
Silver Level
Joined
Jul 28, 2011
Total posts
9,512
Awards
2
Chips
0
Impossible to balance and hurts your opening eange
 
U

Ubercroz

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 8, 2009
Total posts
653
Chips
0
I'm not going to read all the hands and things, too much information to make basic level comments.

1: Fold more. You don't need to be limping. This will save you a lot of money over all. if you are playing 25% (roughly) of the hands dealt, then you are playing 2 hands every orbit + you are paying the BB and the SB. That means (since you miss 70% of the time) that you will lose around $5 every orbit around the table. I imagine you are calling more than just the limp though - so you probably lose closer to $10 every orbit. You can only play 20 orbits before you are busted. That means maybe 3.5 hours of play.

If you fold more, then you will limit that loss and be able to stay at the table longer. That's good.

2: Raise more. If you are raising when you enter a pot, then you have an opportunity to win more often than you deserve to. You get to win pots that you missed. at 1/2 nl live, its pretty thin. People call way too often and you can't bluff often, if ever. However, if you bet $10 preflop you may win the blinds (yeah!). You also may win after 1 person calls and you bet the flop and then you win $12 (yeah!). While you will not always win, you will be able to start bringing in money, and bigger amounts of it.

3: You want to play in position. The closer to last that you get to be, the better off you are. You get to see all the things people do. IF you HAVE to limp (you shouldn't, but live poker... well you can get away with it in position more often) then do it on the button. ONLY do it when there have been several other limpers and you know that a raise is not going to blow anyone off of a hand. play that pot multiway and cheap, and then get some money when everyone checks the flop to you and you bet.

If you do these 3 things, you will start to approach break even. If you can do it well then you can beat 1/2 live.
 
U

Ubercroz

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 8, 2009
Total posts
653
Chips
0
What? No.

Limping is a great strategy to catch hyper aggressive players and isolate them with other limpers.

It depends on the table. If I am in a very aggressive game and am EP with a big pair, depending on the table I will limp. It can be very profitable.

Bad advice.

If they are super aggressive, won't they re-raise you? AWESOME! don't try and outthink these opponents, betting is just about (99.95%) better than limping with an overpair. It looks exactly like what it is. When I get limp 3bet live I am just about 100% certain that it is AA. Then I look at their stack size and mine and I determine if I can profitably call. If they are deep stacked and I am too, then I can call sometimes and take their stack when I hit. Or at least take a lot of their stack. If you limp raise to punish the aggressive guy then you are probably planning to stack off if you can, its just a bad plan. You are playing your hand face up and have no idea what they have. They get the opportunity to play perfectly against you postflop while you have to guess about what they are doing.
 
Carl Trooper

Carl Trooper

Degenerate Idiot
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 23, 2012
Total posts
3,381
Awards
6
Chips
0
Bad advice.

If they are super aggressive, won't they re-raise you? AWESOME! don't try and outthink these opponents, betting is just about (99.95%) better than limping with an overpair. It looks exactly like what it is. When I get limp 3bet live I am just about 100% certain that it is AA. Then I look at their stack size and mine and I determine if I can profitably call. If they are deep stacked and I am too, then I can call sometimes and take their stack when I hit. Or at least take a lot of their stack. If you limp raise to punish the aggressive guy then you are probably planning to stack off if you can, its just a bad plan. You are playing your hand face up and have no idea what they have. They get the opportunity to play perfectly against you postflop while you have to guess about what they are doing.

Its so situation dependent. Its all just one big leveling game. You think my hand is face up? You think I have aces? Ok so now I limp raise 10-8 suited. And when the flops all high cards I steal.

Seriously, not one situation is "the right" way to play. It all depends on how the table acts, and how they react to your moves.

So I guess OP the better answer is.... What does your opponent think you have and are capable of?
 
U

Ubercroz

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 8, 2009
Total posts
653
Chips
0
Its so situation dependent. Its all just one big leveling game. You think my hand is face up? You think I have aces? Ok so now I limp raise 10-8 suited. And when the flops all high cards I steal.

Seriously, not one situation is "the right" way to play. It all depends on how the table acts, and how they react to your moves.

So I guess OP the better answer is.... What does your opponent think you have and are capable of?

Yeah, its leveling dependant.

But do you want to try and out level the good player, or try and take money from the fish?

If you try and "out-level" me by limp raising with T8s then you are likely not isolating me, because another player has a relatively high likelihood of calling your 3bet, and if I do call you now don't know how to deal with me. I have position, there may be a fish in the pot. What are you going to do? are you going to barrell away when you miss and lose money to the fish who is calling with bottom pair? or are you going to donk away at me who called with 55 and spiked his set on the flop and is going to take anything you put in the pot?

It is level dependant, but you cannot profitably balance your range by doing this at these stakes. you are SUBSTANTIALLY better off raising and playing strongly in position.

Your tricks won't work against a good player long, and you will lose money to the fish. In fact once I know you limp raise with T8s, YOU are the fish.
 
S

Sneaky Feet

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 2, 2014
Total posts
583
Chips
0
What? No.

Limping is a great strategy to catch hyper aggressive players and isolate them with other limpers.

It depends on the table. If I am in a very aggressive game and am EP with a big pair, depending on the table I will limp. It can be very profitable.

Please come play at my table. I will thank you in advance for your donations.
 
Carl Trooper

Carl Trooper

Degenerate Idiot
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 23, 2012
Total posts
3,381
Awards
6
Chips
0
Please come play at my table. I will thank you in advance for your donations.


Sure I play on Bovada and if you wanna play HU we can. I have no idea what I am doing and look forward to giving you money.
 
Mr Sandbag

Mr Sandbag

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 13, 2013
Total posts
2,635
Chips
0
You should not be limping. It's not as bad in a 1/2 game since most of the time you are playing with complete fish who aren't thinking about ranges, but you still shouldn't really do it. The rake is usually very high at the 1/2 level, which makes playing limped pots a losing proposition almost always.

Read some books or articles about positional starting ranges and try to hammer those into your mind so it becomes instinct at the table. It's pretty much the first and most fundamental aspect of the game. If you struggle to make good decisions a high percentage of the time preflop, you simply cannot win.

If you really want to learn and improve at the game, be prepared to lose. For awhile. It sucks and can be discouraging, but it's the process that every winning player has endured. I would highly suggest reading up on preflop play and trying to work that into your game as much as you can. Take that info with you to your next session and focus on it while playing almost fit-or-fold postflop. Take detailed notes on spots that are confusing to you and post thorough hand histories for analysis in this thread or in the Hand Analysis section. Make sure to note exact cards in your hand and on the board, stack sizes, bet sizes, position, player types, etc.

It's a slow process, but you have to start somewhere. You have to learn deliberately. I doubt you will improve much from reading basic and vague advice in this thread, so you'll have to dig deeper.

Good luck at the tables! Hope this helps.
 
U

Ubercroz

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 8, 2009
Total posts
653
Chips
0
If you really want to learn and improve at the game, be prepared to lose. For awhile. It sucks and can be discouraging, but it's the process that every winning player has endured.

I lost a shit load when I first played online poker. You can still probably look up Ubercroz on poker table ratings (do people still use that?) at pokerstars and see how bad I was. I spent a lot of time feeling like an idiot before things began to click and I started to really win.
 
Organize a Home Poker Game
Top