Can you turn a trash hand into a long term winner?

[Chris_TC]

Hey guys,

I've always wanted to do this little experiment, and I think now is the time. Basically, I'll take an awful starting hand and for a few weeks play it similarly to how I'd play a really strong hand, i.e. very aggressively. Obviously, I'll mostly have to avoid showdowns.

Looking through the worst $/hand list for the last 2 months, the worst trash hand is 96o which has cost me $0.93/hand. Next in the list is T7o with -$0.88/hand. A bit further down comes J7o with -$0.80/hand.

The totals for roughly 1300 hands each are:
96o = -194.9 ptBB
T7o = -172.3 ptBB
J7o = -152.8 ptBB

The graphs all look remarkably similar. They are almost linear (due to lots of folding) with no upswings in sight. Once we have picked a hand, I'll post the graph and try to turn it into a winner
If you think I should pick a hand not on the list, please post it.

 

[Jagsti]

OMG, it has to be 73o imfo.

Your just cheating with 96o, T7o and J7o are all top quality connecting hands imo

 

[pantin007]

^it doesnt matter what hand, cause ur just going to be bluffing 95% of the time
go for 7-2 o

 

[Chris_TC]

OMG, it has to be 73o imfo.

Your just cheating with 96o, T7o and J7o are all top quality connecting hands imo

Did you mean 72o? I picked those three hands because they have cost me the much. A lot of suited connectors, even some small pairs, have cost me much more, but they are not considered trash hands.

Just for comparison:
72o = -141.1 ptBB over ~1300 hands
73o = -152.4 ptBB over ~1300 hands

I would be willing to pick 73o.

 

[Jagsti]

Go for it 72o then, its kinda sexy imo.

 

[Chris_TC]

Go for it 72o then, its kinda sexy imo.

Actually, you may be right. Turning this infamous hand into a winner would be sexy.

So, I'm willing to pick 72o after all. You guys do some voting, and hopefully I can start with this tomorrow or the day after.

 

[Monoxide]

10-7o

 

[Kenzie 96]

You could join KD's quest to make 84o pokers most profitable hand.

 

[Debi]

72o

 

[un-diluted]

let me know when you're experimenting with these hands and at which table pls via a pm...

 

[dj11]

I believe in the ancient history of CC there is something mystical about 84o.

 

[SAH89]

6-9, I always seem to get that.

 

[MrMuckets]

Position?

 

[blankoblanco]

it's an interesting question. the best way to do it, if turning a trash hand into a winner was your only goal, would probably be to play in a way where that trash hand was the only hand you played. that way you'd be incredibly tight and people would give you credit for a hand when you raised whatever trash it was. of course, that's the extreme end of it. basically the tighter you are, the better it would work. also, this would destroy your whole winrate, but at least you'd do better with the trash hand

 

[mobster850]

depends on how much your will to wager on your cards and then you must luck out on the flop and make something happen othrwise your chances are slim to none

 

[Chris_TC]

I haven't played any poker in almost 3 weeks, so I can't wait any longer. The votes are inconclusive, and I have decided to go with 84o.
I ran a search but couldn't find the original thread (which I have never read). Apparently it's somewhat of a legendary Cardschat hand. And it's a 3-gapper, making it trashier than the hands I originally suggested (J7 has more high card value).

let me know when you're experimenting with these hands and at which table pls via a pm...

Why? Do you think it would give you an advantage? My 3-betting and 4-bet bluffing range is wide enough already, adding 84o won't suddenly make me a target.

basically the tighter you are, the better it would work. also, this would destroy your whole winrate, but at least you'd do better with the trash hand

I'm not going to change my game at all. I play a tight 21/18, and that's what I'll keep playing.

Let's see if we can change this graph. I will play 6-max exclusively.

 

[RickH2005]

The Doyle Brunson----10-2o

 

[BelgoSuisse]

Chris, do you have more SD or NSD winnings with AA and KK ? Those are probably among the hands that you play the most aggressively, right?

 

[Chris_TC]

Chris, do you have more SD or NSD winnings with AA and KK ? Those are probably among the hands that you play the most aggressively, right?

For AA and KK, showdown and no showdown winnings are almost identical. No showdown profit is about 11% less than showdown profit (total, not per hand!)

NSD winnings for AA and KK is 3.2ptBB/hand.
NSD winnings for 84o is -0.1ptBB/hand.

 

[Egon Towst]

It has been done before. KerouacsDog has demonstrated that 84o can be a long-term winning hand if you play it as though it were AA.

In honour of his achievement, we include it in CCs annual scavenger hunt and we all try to take down at least one large pot with 84o. Some of us enjoy more success at this than others.

 

[Chris_TC]

It's been done? Dayum. Do you have a link?

 

[Egon Towst]

It's been done? Dayum. Do you have a link?

Yikes. it must be ~2 years and 30,000 threads ago.

I will PM KD and see if he knows where to find it, or whether he might just summarise for us.

 

[PokerVic]

As if your plan wasn't difficult enough, how about adding the stipulation that you have to show 84o when you win a pot with it.

 

[KerouacsDog]

yeah, Ive got 84 hands somewhere, only at micro............you want links?


but having a look at your three suggestions, there way too dodgy to play, imo. At least with 84 you know where you are, 90% of the time.
69, T7, J7, right? well, T7 and J7 are ok, till the flop comes JQK or something similiar, after you've raised it PF and been called. You've hit the straight draw with the first hand, and bottom pair with the second, but whats the likely hands of the people calling your raise? Normally, High cards/high PPs, which would slaughter you in both cases with a board like that.
69? Nice hand, but too many people play it, 'cause of the sexual connotations, maybe, I dont know.

Anyway, will find links somewhere, for 84, my nomination, if you like?

 

[KerouacsDog]

It has been done before. KerouacsDog has demonstrated that 84o can be a long-term winning hand if you play it as though it were AA.

In honour of his achievement, we include it in CCs annual scavenger hunt and we all try to take down at least one large pot with 84o. Some of us enjoy more success at this than others.

sorry, just read this thread thoroughly after already posting, here's how I play 84os, when Im on my A game.
Like ET said, you basically play it like its AA, you get the mindset that you have AA, and treat it as such. Imagine, if we were sat at a table and you were physically blind, and I was your helper?
I look at your hand and whisper what you have.
I see 84os, look at the table(this is live, btw), realise that you are the best at the table, and whisper to you that you have AA(instead of the actual 84), how would you play it. Thats the mindset you need.


here's one, not really excellent play, I just went all-in, but its just to prove I do play/like them.
https://www.cardschat.com/forum/poker-goals-challenges-wins-46/whats-chump-73731/

oh, for more by me and other ccers, type 84os immortal in search engine to get more HH's