Poker Orifice
FoolsTilt
Platinum Level
arahel_jazz
Unbalanced and Committed
Silver Level
420
Pascal-lf
Legend
Silver Level
Seriously?
I've always been the first to get in line and slap Phil for his attitude and antics and poor cash play. But he has absolutely ruled tournament poker for the past 2 years, and he showed everyone in this tournament that he can change up and stay relevant.
#2 in POY last year and almost a lock to win it this year, 13 WSOP bracelets, 2 ME wins, all time high in WSOP cashes and #3 in all time earnings, with 3 $1M+ scores in 2 years.
Hate his actions all you want and I'll join you, but you can't argue with his career. So yeah, I was stoked to see him take it down. Nobody gave it to him, he earned it.
Absolutely ruled tournament poker? I can think of hundreds of players, probably thousands, who play better than Phil Hellmuth. He runs like god - 77 v JJ for an important pot to go HU, binking the 2 on the river with 42 after calling a raise on the turn with bottom pair, the list goes on. His playing style is outdated and the only reason it "works" is because he continually runs good. Live poker players never get a big enough sample size and no one really ever adjusts properly (just look at the 2 players on the final table 3 handed who didn't).
dmorris68
Legend
Loyaler
I guess we'll just agree to disagree. I don't condone his actions, but I fail to see how you can argue with his results over such a long period. You talk about sample size but there are few people (if any) who can come close to Helmuth's live tournament sample size, and certainly his wsop sample size. You seem to have a chip on your shoulder and can't get past your dislike for him, but the man deserves respect for his particular speciality, which is large field amateur-heavy tournaments like WSOP events.
Again, #1 in WSOP bracelets. #1 in WSOP cashes (95!). #1 in WSOP final tables (49!). #3 in earnings (and only reason he's not #2 behind Ivey is Antonio's artificially inflated ranking from One Drop). 2nd in POY last year with a virtual lock on it this year (Merson must take down the ME to overtake him). Given his performance over the past 2 consecutive years, you cannot rationally argue that he's not relevant in today's live MTT scene.
I'm not saying he's the most skilled tournament player walking the earth today, and he's certainly not the most well rounded player, but in terms of big tournaments nobody can touch those stats either. I find it pretty laughable that you can't even admit that.
Again, #1 in WSOP bracelets. #1 in WSOP cashes (95!). #1 in WSOP final tables (49!). #3 in earnings (and only reason he's not #2 behind Ivey is Antonio's artificially inflated ranking from One Drop). 2nd in POY last year with a virtual lock on it this year (Merson must take down the ME to overtake him). Given his performance over the past 2 consecutive years, you cannot rationally argue that he's not relevant in today's live MTT scene.
I'm not saying he's the most skilled tournament player walking the earth today, and he's certainly not the most well rounded player, but in terms of big tournaments nobody can touch those stats either. I find it pretty laughable that you can't even admit that.
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Pascal-lf
Legend
Silver Level
His WSOP bracelets come from a tiny sample size. He also won most of them before the poker boom. Poker has changed a lot and improved a lot. Just while I was watching the live stream he made a bunch of inexcusable mistakes which he got away with. Looking purely at his results is being results orientated - you wouldn't say "well he won the pot so he must have played it good" so why are you looking at his tournament wins and saying that he must have played well in them too? He's played less than 1,000 WSOP events and won 13 of them - even if he's the best player in the world he's still on a heater. It's a classic example of 'fooled by randomness'.
His stats mean nothing when he makes so many massive mistakes. I'm not saying that he's not won the most bracelets or had the most cashes. I'm also not saying that some of the stuff he does might not work really well. But there's a massive amount of luck involved in his success too, and I really struggle to see how you can't see that. Saying "his results over such a long period" means you're looking too much at the length of period instead of the actual sample - which is tiny. There are many, many better players out there than him who just run a lot worse.
His stats mean nothing when he makes so many massive mistakes. I'm not saying that he's not won the most bracelets or had the most cashes. I'm also not saying that some of the stuff he does might not work really well. But there's a massive amount of luck involved in his success too, and I really struggle to see how you can't see that. Saying "his results over such a long period" means you're looking too much at the length of period instead of the actual sample - which is tiny. There are many, many better players out there than him who just run a lot worse.
MediaBLITZ
Legend
Silver Level
Wow, holding that against him? Then let's look at this stat:
Who has won the most bracelets since the Moneymaker effect?
Two guys have won 4 - Phil Ivey is one and you get one guess who the other is.
But let's say you are 100% correct and Hellmuth is just a luck box - it just doesn't change what DMorris is saying - "...he has absolutely ruled tournament poker for the past 2 years..." and ..."you cannot rationally argue that he's not relevant in today's live MTT scene."
Didn't hear him say he was the best and in fact you just don't hear many people saying that at all - but it became evident watching this FT that he has added some new color to his game and anyone who saw this can't help but have it effect their play against him in the future. I think Esfandiari made that point pretty clear.
Daniel72
Legend
Bronze Level
I agree, you can´t play enough 10k events to get a real feel if you are a longterm live mtt winner or not. But i also think Phil is one of the players, who play the most tourneys. Maybe he played 100 - 200 10k´s and similiar ? Sample size is way too small, i agree.
But i heard he worked at his game and the results speak for him.
But i heard he worked at his game and the results speak for him.
Pascal-lf
Legend
Silver Level
Added some new colour to his game? Peeling bottom pair a lot is a fun colour. "he can change up and stay relevant.". He got a lot of chips in behind and then got there. That's my big problem. Pulling up statistics and saying that this proves "his performance over the past 2 consecutive years, you cannot rationally argue that he's not relevant in today's live MTT scene." - it's his results, not his performances.
Nice way of pulling one random line from my post, attacking it, then agreeing with the rest of my post. The fact that he thinks he's the best player in the world, shouts this from the rooftops, is rude and insulting to other players, and probably most importantly (which hasn't been mentioned so far) was involved in shady stuff at UltimateBet (looking forward to the documentary) combined with his poor plays makes me wonder how anyone can say "way to go"
Nice way of pulling one random line from my post, attacking it, then agreeing with the rest of my post. The fact that he thinks he's the best player in the world, shouts this from the rooftops, is rude and insulting to other players, and probably most importantly (which hasn't been mentioned so far) was involved in shady stuff at UltimateBet (looking forward to the documentary) combined with his poor plays makes me wonder how anyone can say "way to go"
nc_royals
Visionary
Silver Level
I agree with Dmorris68. You can hate his antics and rudeness but the numbers speak for itself. Im sure you can say this guy is better or that guy is better in tournanments but that's only opinion. Sure the competition is better today than 10 to 15 years ago but you cant punish the guy for playing winning tournament poker back then and today. For all of us on a poker forum that watch TV and think "Im better than that guy." Pony up the money and see how your income and results compare to these pros.
MediaBLITZ
Legend
Silver Level
Why's that? He's been doing a a lot of this in this year+.
arahel_jazz
Unbalanced and Committed
Silver Level
And doing it very well. +1
Pascal-lf
Legend
Silver Level
wrong
nc_royals
Visionary
Silver Level
You watch some tournaments on TV and decide that he just runs good over the last 23 years (which is when he won the WSOP ME in '89). Talk about taking a small sample. Youre seeing what less than 1% of all the hands he plays in tourney's and then decide it's just luck. Its like saying Tom Brady is just a lucky Quarterback on a lucky streak. Your bias against him is no argument for the numbers themselves.
Im not a Chino fan which was also at this final table but I can still recognize that he's got game. But obviously you can admit the same about Phil. You just cant look past the "Brat" he employs in front of the cameras.
MediaBLITZ
Legend
Silver Level
Haters gotta hate.
I swear that Ukranian tilted the hell out of PH and I thought he was going to piss away his opportunity with his less than optimal play.
But at least I could recognize that he was doing something incredibly out of character. The guy whose biggest trait was to run away from trouble was in there fighting for scraps and relying on the fact he could outplay these guys (which looked in doubt more than once). I was impressed as well with his courtesy towards the other players. Never got the impression he was belittling or running anyone down. But since his reputation is what it is, hardly anyone recognizes that is another aspect of his game he has worked hard on the last couple of years.
I swear that Ukranian tilted the hell out of PH and I thought he was going to piss away his opportunity with his less than optimal play.
But at least I could recognize that he was doing something incredibly out of character. The guy whose biggest trait was to run away from trouble was in there fighting for scraps and relying on the fact he could outplay these guys (which looked in doubt more than once). I was impressed as well with his courtesy towards the other players. Never got the impression he was belittling or running anyone down. But since his reputation is what it is, hardly anyone recognizes that is another aspect of his game he has worked hard on the last couple of years.