What should be done?

R

RazvanBomb

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Last night, i played poker with some friends, hold'em. This is what happend (i need some help to get the right answer):
After the Flop i had 2 pairs, but at the TurnCard i had a full house and i decided to bet big. Everyone folded, so i throw the cards on the table (something like "read'em and weep") and everyone saw my FullHouse; but in fact there was a guy left in the hand (i didn't saw his cards because he held it in his hands), he was thinking on what he should do. Some said that i folded because i threw my cards away but having the fact that it wasn't my turn i couldn't folded...so i'm against that... Who should have taken the money? We had a split pot because we were among friends... But i don't think we did the right thing.
P.S. Keep in mind that when i showed my cards it was his time to bet/raise/fold.
 
pigpen02

pigpen02

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In bridge, you can show your cards at any time so the remaining players can conceed the game. Of course, you don't throw them down, but hold them out to be seen. The cards are supposed to be seen at all times, so the other guy was as much at fault as you, in my opinion. I think you should have gotten the pot and he should be thankful that you saved him his next bet.
 
Four Dogs

Four Dogs

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But in Hold'em, if cards are shown with the intent of influencing another players action, his cards are ruled dead. I would assume that this rule would hold out of turn as well as in. The key word here is intent. Since showing a full house will most likely result in action in contrast to the offenders best interests there is obviously no intent and this should be treated as if the offender had accidently revealed his cards as when dropping them on the floor. In such cases his cards still play and all players at the table are entitled to the information whether involved in the hand or not. Remaining player in this case should have been given his usual choices of checking or betting (unlikely). However, a player who deliberatly acts out of turn may not bet or raise on his next turn to act, but as your action was not deliberate the rest of the hand should have played out normally. Your punishment was that you failed to profit further from your monster hand.
 
MrDaMan

MrDaMan

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In my home games when I'm the dealer, I am constantly reminding my friends when stuff happens of what is legal and illegal. No folding out of turn, no string betting, if their cards touch the muck they are dead cards, you have to show both of your cards to play your hand. I've warned them many times about protecting their cards.

But my home games are not casino tough, my home games consist of friends playing a friendly game, so I often will allow some discussion and consensus decisions if they have merit and are reasonable, but before all my games EVERYONE understands MY ruling is final.

My ruling in your case under the scenario you described would be that you acted out of turn and I would give your opponent the opportunity to, call, raise or fold. I would also probably remind all players that their cards must remain on the table and in sight of all players at all times so that I the dealer and the other players can see where the action is and where its going at all times.

If you didn't turn your cards over ( didn't show ) and they hit the muck I would award your opponent the pot.

As the dealer at our games I run a TIGHT/RULED game, honest and as consistent as I can with the casino rules I'm familiar with. If your passing the deck, and the rules aren't clear, consensus decisions will often be muddied, unclear and inconsistent but anyone playing under those conditions should know that and be aware that a troubled decision could go against them. You either choose to play and accept or not play.

My friends and I have played for years and we used to have some awful decisions from time to time, we didn't used to play much. Now that I've taken the lead and deal all the games under a TIGHT/RULED structure with the understanding that I am the final arbiter (within reason I am not a tyrant) we play more often, it's much more fun for everyone.
 
U

unlucky79

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No limit game you throw your cards down before final betting means they have been mucked and you forfeit the hand. Thats how it has worked in this situation at any casino I have played in. Always make the rules known before the start and keep the game moving fast I always say in home games otherwise people think they are getting cheated somewhere along the lines of play. I host my own home games and deal every game. We post the rules right on the table use timers for calls and make sure everyone understands its time to play not talk the blinds away. I would say splitting the pot that 1 time was correct but next time your cards would of been in the muck you lose!!!
 
Semicolonkid

Semicolonkid

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Hmm, I think you should've won that, since the other guy was not making it clear that he was still in the hand. I believe that's a bigger "crime" than revealing your hand. Even if you threw it down...
At least you'll all know better next time!
 
mrsnake3695

mrsnake3695

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In bridge, you can show your cards at any time so the remaining players can conceed the game. Of course, you don't throw them down, but hold them out to be seen. The cards are supposed to be seen at all times, so the other guy was as much at fault as you, in my opinion. I think you should have gotten the pot and he should be thankful that you saved him his next bet.

Umm this isn't bridge, lol. I don't think we can compare. In a casino, if your hand hit the muck it would be dead nothing else would matter. If you showed out of turn but they didn't hit the muck the individual casino rules would apply.

As for the other player not making it "obvious" he was still in the hand, he is under no obligation to make his being in the hand obvious. If he hasn't mucked then he's still in the hand period. It's up to the dealer to require him to act if it's his turn. As a player you have an obligation to know what's going on and who is still in the hand or not before you act. Your throwing down your cards before it was your turn to act is not the fault of the other player but yours alone.

You don't make it clear if your hand hit the muck or not or just went down on the table. If the hit the muck your hand should be dead and your opponent should be awarded the pot. If not and it's simply a matter of your acting out of turn then the split pot is a reasonable decision in a friendly home game.
 
Four Dogs

Four Dogs

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This from Robers Rules of Poker

2. Cards thrown into the muck may be ruled dead. However, a hand that is clearly identifiable may be retrieved at management’s discretion if doing so is in the best interest of the game. We will make an extra effort to rule a hand retrievable if it was folded as a result of false information given to the player.

In this case there was no mistaking his cards as mucked and they are clearly identifiable. Furtermore, merely placing your cards on the table in front of you, as in this case, does not constitute mucking.
 
K_Kahne_Fan

K_Kahne_Fan

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I've seen this on a televised tourney; the player thought the hand was over and flipped his cards over [in front of him, not to the muck]. They had him keeps his cards face up and let the other player(s) still play as they normally would. Funny thing is, the player also had a full house in that situation... so everyone eneded up folding :D
 
Jack Daniels

Jack Daniels

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No limit game you throw your cards down before final betting means they have been mucked and you forfeit the hand. Thats how it has worked in this situation at any casino I have played in.
Those may be the rules you use in your home game, but it not the standard.

Additionally, also from Robert's Rules of Poker,
2 - HOUSE POLICIES

PROCEDURES
18. Players must keep their cards in full view. This means above table-level and not past the edge of the table. The cards should not be covered by the hands in a manner to completely conceal them.

So in this case, the player with the cards in his hand was the violator. Those cards should never have left the table and been held in his hands like that. Whether intentional or not, he concealed his cards; the effect of that was the next player acting out of turn. However the act out of turn was in good faith with the simple intention of showing his monster hand to the players that all just folded to him. As this is the case, one of two things would make a reasonable ruling:
1) declare the card concealer's hand dead for hiding his cards or,
2) recognize that the guy probably wasn't hiding his cards intentionally and also realize that the act out of turn is a direct result of the non-intentional concealment, then allow the concealer to act on his hand as if it was his turn. Following what is likely a fold anyway, the pot would be handed to the guy that that exposed his cards.

IMO option 2 would be the better choice in this matter followed by a reminder to all that cards and chips must be visible at all times.


EDIT: From the TDA rules as updated following the 2007 summit -
31 Exposing Cards​
A player who exposes his cards with action pending may incur a penalty,
but will not have a dead hand. The penalty will begin at the end of the
hand.

 
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