Tournament Structure Comparison

aliengenius

aliengenius

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Using Arnold Snyder's criteria I plugged different site's structures into the calculator there.

Higher numbers indicate a better structure, and theoretically a more "skill" based tournament (see Snyder's site for more detailed explanation):

Multi-Table Tournaments:

Stars (private/cc events):
(1500 chips, 15 min levels)
Patience Factor is 6.60.
Skill Level is 3.

Stars (regular):
(1500 chips, 15 min levels)
Patience Factor is 7.42.
Skill Level is 3.

Full Tilt:
(1500 chips, 10 min levels)
Patience Factor is 7.54.
Skill Level is 4.

UB:
(under $100, 1500 chips, 12 min levels)
Patience Factor is 9.84.
Skill Level is 4.

Bodog:
(under $100, 1500 chips, 12 min levels)
Patience Factor is 9.84.
Skill Level is 4.


SNGs:

FullTilt:
(1500 chips, 6 min levels)
Patience Factor is 4.30.
Skill Level is 1.

Poker Stars:
(1500 chips, 10 min levels)
Patience Factor is 4.34.
Skill Level is 1.

UB:
(1500 chips, 10 min levels)
Patience Factor is 4.94.
Skill Level is 2.


DeepStack Events:

Stars Deepstack events:
(5000 chips, 30 min levels)
Patience Factor is 39.68.
Skill Level is 6.

FullTilt Double Stack 90 player SNG
(follows multi table tourney structure, but with more starting chips and a limited number of participants). Note that this is NOT the turbo-deepstack-knockout monstrosity of a chimera tournament that FT has concocted.
(3000 chips, 10 min levels)
Patience Factor is 10.99.
Skill Level is 5.


Compare to some live tournaments:

Borgata tournament last Sept ($500 +$60):
(5000 chips, 60 min levels)
Patience Factor is 25.34.
Skill Level is 6.

World Series Main Event:
(20,000 chips, 120 min levels)
Patience Factor is 89.01.
Skill Level is 6.
 
Steveg1976

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So a Drooling Monkey should be able to beat a stars sng? Man do I feel retarted :eek:
 
4Aces

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Very interesting, thanks for sharing.
When the skill level is lower, would that mean that a winning player wouldnt win as much? or would it just mean that there is more variance? If the former is true, then why would anyone play MTT's at stars instead of at fulltilt?
 
aliengenius

aliengenius

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This seems to jive with the article from the 2p2 mag:

Evaluating Internet Poker Tournaments
by Dene Tribe
Internet Poker Tournaments are faster and offer greater value than brick and mortar cardrooms. More hands are being dealt per hour than ever before due to the switch from dial up connections to high speed. Software upgrades from online poker sites have also increased speeds. An average of 70 hands per hour are dealt by the major internet sites which is twice as fast as a live dealer.

Internet poker is a major factor in the increased skill levels of todays poker players. It is no longer surprising when a young Internet poker player shows up in cardrooms shortly after turning 21 and begins winning big tournaments. The cheapest and most effective way to develop poker skills is to purchase a few good poker books and develop those skills online at low buy in events before venturing into the brick and mortar tournaments.
I originally published Poker Tournament Evaluation System (PTES) in the June 2007 magazine.

The system evaluates the M at the start of the tournament and after 1 hour of play and assumes that your chips are blinded off. The 1 hour M is the tournament rating and a higher number indicates a better structure. When the 1 hour M is 20 or greater, the 2 hour M is evaluated to determine if it is a superstack event.

When using the PTES system to evaluate Internet tournaments, adjustments are required due to the increased speed. Since the Internet is moving twice as fast blinds are posted every 10 minutes instead of 20. The M will be evaluated at 30 minutes online instead of 1 hour live. If it is a High Skill event (30 Minute M of 20 or greater), reevaluate the M at 1 hour to determine if this is a superstack event.

Internet players paying $10 can receive as much action as a brick and mortar player paying hundreds or even thousands of dollars. The following comparison which is evaluated using PTES proves this point. Both qualify as a super stack event.

Online: We use the pokerstars Superstack event offered several times a week with buy ins from $10-$30. They also offer a Superstack event on Saturday evenings with a buy-in of $100.
All Pokerstars Superstack events start with 5000 chips and 30 Min Blinds
Structure for first 3 hours: 10/20 15/30 25/50 50/100 75/150 100/200
Starting M: 5000/30 = 167M
30 Minute M = 109M
60 Minute M = 66M
Brick and Mortar: Legends of Poker 2007 The Bicycle Casino Bell Gardens Ca.
$970+$100 bankroll Builder offered on multiple occasions Start with 3000 chips and 60 minute blinds
Structure first 3 hours: 25/25 25/50 50/100
Starting M 3000/50 = 60M
1 Hour M = 38M
2 Hour M = 18M
The online $10 tournament offers a better structure than the nearly $1,000 event. In the Online example with a starting field of around 300 players it will play out in about 11-12 hours which is equivalent to 22-24 hours of live play. The brick and mortar event will be broken up into a 2 day event. The Legends of Poker event is more fun to play, but the Internet offers exceptional value..

Internet Offerings: Everything is available at anytime at any price in the Internet poker rooms: I have completed a comparison of the major sites offerings which players can use as a reference. I looked at Multi Table Tournaments with no rebuys events only. The slowest (more skilled) Tournaments are listed first. Best value events are highlighted in bold.
Note: All the sites listed accept U.S. Players except Party. Please keep the following information in mind when selecting to play the normal tournaments: Many sites offer variations to the standard tournaments and they normally do this by offering more starting chips. For example, Pokerstars starts many tournaments with 3,000 chips and uses the same blind structure. This changes the event to high skill with a 30 minute M=38 and 1 hour M=11. Players preferring a slower structure should look for the tournaments starting with 3,000 chips on Pokerstars.

1

2

Weekly Main Event All EST
Saturday 16:30 Absolute 150,000 Guarantee Entry Fee is $500 +$30
All Other Main Events are on Sunday
12:45 Party 300,000 Guarantee Entry $200+$15
16:00 Bodog 100,000 Guarantee Entry $100+$9
16:30 Poker Stars 1,000,000 Guarantee Entry $200+$15
17:00 Ultimate Bet 200,000 Guarantee Entry $200 +$15
18:00 Full Tilt 500,000 Guarantee Entry $200+$16
3

For those players who prefer a quicker tournament I evaluated the Turbo offerings. Fastest Tournaments are listed first. (Full Tilt and Ultimate Bet do not offer MTT Turbos)

Turbo


Internet Blind Structures
Pokerstars Less than 10,000 starting chips
10/20 15/30 25/50 50/100 75/150 100/200 125/250 +25 150/300 +25
Pokerstars Events Starting with 10,000 chips or more
25/50 50/100 100/200 150/300 200/400 300/600 400/800 400/800 +50
Party Regular
20/40 30/60 50/100 100/200 150/300 200/400 300/600 400/800 +25 600/1200 +50 800/1600 +50
Party Freeroll, Qualifier and Speed
20/40 30/60 50/100 100/200 200/400 300/600 400/800 +25 600/1200 +50 1000/2000 +75
Full Tilt Regular and Double Stack
15/30 20/40 25/50 30/60 40/80 50/100 60/120 80/160 100/200 120/240 +25 150/300 +25 200/400 +50
Full Tilt Super Stack
10/20 15/30 20/40 25/50 30/60 40/80 50/100 60/120 80/160 100/200 120/240 +25 150/300 +25 200/400 +50
Bodog All
5/10 10/20 15.30 20/40 30/60 50/100 75/150 100/200 150/300 150/300 +25 200/400 +50 300/600 +75 400/800 +100
Absolute All
10/20 15/30 20/40 30/60 40/80 50/100 60/120 75/150 100/200 100/200 +25 150/300 +25 200/400+50 250/500 +50 300/600 +50 400/800 +75 500/1000 +75
Ultimate Bet All
5/10 10/20 15/30 20/40 30/60 50/100 75/150 100/200 150/300 150/300 +25 200/400 +50 300/600 +75 400/800 +100 600/1200 +125
 
4Aces

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Wouldn't it be better if the blinds increased every time a player was knocked out?
 
Jack Daniels

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Wouldn't it be better if the blinds increased every time a player was knocked out?
Imagine that in a PS 12K person FR. Hand 1, blinds 5/10, hand 2, blinds 4266452624534502/8532905249069060
 
Steveg1976

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So if I am understanding the point of the second article correctly they are saying that the slower and/or deeper stacked a tournament is, Skill plays a more important role in the results a player can expect. That makes sense from the point of view that is allows good players to have a greater amount of time before they are forced into marginal situations based on the rising blinds. At the same time the bad players are being picked off by the good players and beating each other up.
 
dj11

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So much good info here. Thanks AG. In fact there is too much info here for me at 6:15 Sunday morning. I would request a sticky for this, but the sticky system is borderline crowded these days. That and the constant changing nature of online tourney's may render all this moot sooner than later. But this would be a great candidate to be bumped at regular intervals.
 
ukpi_hutch

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Some very good points here.

Obviously I understand that as the structure gets faster the skill factor gets lower and luckbox factor gets higher. And as previously mentioned a drooling monkey could beat turbo games. However I think that the skill in turbos is a little underestimated, most people seem to play turbos faster than they need to, which more experienced players should be able to take advantage of.
Im not disputing the fact that there is less skill in turbos than a 3-day deepstack event, but I still think better players will come out on top in the looooong run
 
odinscott

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I for one really hate turbos. I need to start playing deepstacks exclusively. I tried the double turbo or whatever its called one time, that was horrible. They turn into these allin fests, where the blinds force the action and really it only depends on what cards you are dealt. And even then, getting AA with 4 other people in the pot allin, isnt that great to begin with. I am glad that I read these, I mean I knew the info anyways, but now I will try to aim only for the deepstack tourneys.
 
dj11

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Bump.

It should be noted that the article AG presents was originally published in June '07.

Major changes at Ultimatebet (some would blame/credit Annie Duke), may make the UB results inaccurate. For the most part the games haven't changed much in structure at Tilt and Stars as far as my old memory can tell.
 
aliengenius

aliengenius

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Bump.

It should be noted that the article AG presents was originally published in June '07.

Major changes at Ultimatebet (some would blame/credit Annie Duke), may make the Ultimatebet results inaccurate. For the most part the games haven't changed much in structure at Tilt and Stars as far as my old memory can tell.

This ^^ is untrue. Ultimatebet structure is the same as it ever was according to their website. Their tournament "schedule" changed, not their structure.
 
Last edited:
Mook Johnson

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I for one really hate turbos. I need to start playing deepstacks exclusively. I tried the double turbo or whatever its called one time, that was horrible. They turn into these allin fests, where the blinds force the action and really it only depends on what cards you are dealt. And even then, getting AA with 4 other people in the pot allin, isnt that great to begin with. I am glad that I read these, I mean I knew the info anyways, but now I will try to aim only for the deepstack tourneys.
I despise turbos also. It's unfortunate that they have so many at the lowest limits, although I understand why.
 
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