fletchdad
Jammin................
Loyaler
AlfieAA
Legend
Silver Level
probably because you are polite in all of your posts
that's a good thing mate, certainly not a 'bad' thing.
AlfieAA
Legend
Silver Level
its not about being a moralizer...its about being a human being and not accepting another human beings vile actions.....its normal....whats not normal, is giving someone who has done a horrendous crime a 2nd chance....you can forgive if you are the victim, which will take away the 'victim' tag, which will give them peace...but its not normal to just accept it...
there has to be a limit for 2nd chances.....and sex offenders go way past that limit..no 2nd chance....no fkn chance.
TheKAAHK
CardsChat Elite
Silver Level
"Sex offender" is a pretty broad term. If said man diddled children then of course that's deplorable and he should be shot, and definitely not be repping any reputable company. But what if he was a teenager, say 18, and slept with his 17 y/o gf and her parents complained? Maybe he ripped his pants and had to walk by a schoolyard on his way home to change and a teacher called the cops. Both of those things, if pushed through the system would make him a sex offender.
I kinda agree with Dj on this. Having a high personal moral standard is good. Looking down your nose at others due to a label without context and claiming moral superiority is just not cool.
I kinda agree with Dj on this. Having a high personal moral standard is good. Looking down your nose at others due to a label without context and claiming moral superiority is just not cool.
Bob23bk
Visionary
Silver Level
"criminal sexual assault on a child" (from OP)
I'm no lawyer, but in most jurisdictions this would not be considered sexual assault (so long as consent was given) because there is usually a clause that makes an exception if the age difference is 2 (or 3, depending) years or less. Also, (s)he was 26 at time of offense.
I see what you're getting at, but I find it hard to believe this would be construed as 'criminal sexual assault on a child' rather than 'indecent exposure', even if he had unwittingly exposed himself to children.
Back to OP, I think (s)he may deserve a second chance here provided that the sentence has been served and all. How many children are at poker events afterall? (Let's keep it real please
) Attacking the representative on issues not related to their job is ad hominem, and should be frowned upon imo. I'd also like to think that the company was aware beforehand due to common background checks for jobs, and if not, how stupid can they be to not even google this person :rofl: I believe that the rage tweets would be grounds for termination (or at least some other sort of recourse) as that's obviously not how someone should be representing any poker company. Bad beats are a part of the game, the best player doesn't always win, and if they can't accept that they are in the wrong place!That being said, let's not turn this post into a strawman argument (IE: Bob is ok with child rape but not twitter rage
)
fletchdad
Jammin................
Loyaler
The fact that you combined it with considering a registered sex offender. Thats what the second chance was about.
I will say that I was somehow putting that guy in the child molesting category, and upon re reading, that was not mentioned. So that was a bad on my part. But I do admit I think being a RSO should be cause for concern.
I do, however, think I understand that there is a blurred line here, depending on circumstances. Still, a RSO is probably not gonna be a model of virtue....
dj11
Legend
Silver Level
FYI, and probably has something to do with my 'position' on this is the fact that here in the States, it is not uncommon for folks to cop a plea for some other crime, and part of that plea is that they register as a RSO, even tho the original crime had nothing at all to do with anything sex related. I personally know, (knew, as it was 15 years ago) a guy who's original crime was cultivation, and to avoid jail time, he, among other weird things, had to register as a RSO.
Then lets add the absolute belief I have that a good percentage of the folks who were put to death at the hands of the state (death penalty) were absolutely innocent, and I just can't abide those moralists who seem so quick to judge. Throw in some recent policing revelations, and my trust in a justice oriented justice system is gone. My pragmatism understand the expediency of getting what someone thinks is a perp to cop to something is just face saving bs.
I have watched thru my years many 'in the news' morality plays, and for the most part, the zealot moralists who seem hell-bent on ruining someone, tend to fail. There was a case here in L.A. The McMartins were a family owned and operated and successful preschool/ baby sitting business. Multi-generational. Some kids, under the misguidance of 'psychological investigators' were led to believe that something 'unnatural' had happened between a 20 something male McMartin, and the kids. Trial dragged on for a long time, maniacal moralists having a heyday condemning the evil beasts...blah blah blah. I believe the first time thru, several convictions were made, but on appeal, all the allegations were proved not only false but orchestrated but a few politico's bent on currying favor for some future political career. The family was destroyed, and the kids probably psychologically scarred for life.
Then add the overwhelming hypocrisy of the church, the self appointed 'Keepers of the Morals' and if you can still think that anyone can have moral authority over others is valid, then you should run for Pope.
The paradox for me was even posting my first reply, which was me, moralizing about moralizers. I knew that when I hit the submit key. Now this bigger reply is even a worse part of that paradox.
Yet, I hit the submit key......
Then lets add the absolute belief I have that a good percentage of the folks who were put to death at the hands of the state (death penalty) were absolutely innocent, and I just can't abide those moralists who seem so quick to judge. Throw in some recent policing revelations, and my trust in a justice oriented justice system is gone. My pragmatism understand the expediency of getting what someone thinks is a perp to cop to something is just face saving bs.
I have watched thru my years many 'in the news' morality plays, and for the most part, the zealot moralists who seem hell-bent on ruining someone, tend to fail. There was a case here in L.A. The McMartins were a family owned and operated and successful preschool/ baby sitting business. Multi-generational. Some kids, under the misguidance of 'psychological investigators' were led to believe that something 'unnatural' had happened between a 20 something male McMartin, and the kids. Trial dragged on for a long time, maniacal moralists having a heyday condemning the evil beasts...blah blah blah. I believe the first time thru, several convictions were made, but on appeal, all the allegations were proved not only false but orchestrated but a few politico's bent on currying favor for some future political career. The family was destroyed, and the kids probably psychologically scarred for life.
Then add the overwhelming hypocrisy of the church, the self appointed 'Keepers of the Morals' and if you can still think that anyone can have moral authority over others is valid, then you should run for Pope.
The paradox for me was even posting my first reply, which was me, moralizing about moralizers. I knew that when I hit the submit key. Now this bigger reply is even a worse part of that paradox.
Yet, I hit the submit key......
Txpokerlover
Enthusiast
Silver Level
Originally Posted by TheKAAHK But what if he was a teenager, say 18, and slept with h
This Poker Player was 26 at the time of their crime and is a Registred Sex offender as a result of it. Morals have everything to do with that. Radom ex) Your daughter/son start playing poker and end up at the same table as this player. This poker player is all patched up and wearing this companies clothing. You google this person and discover what I learned. I just don't see how anyone with any morals at all could not see how wrong it is, especially on the part of the company who hired the player. When I contacted this company it was obvious based on the answer I received they knew about this player's past. In business you always have a moral responsility to us, the consumer. You are about to buy, for example, a T-shirt from a registered sex offender for your daughter/son from a company who knew of this players offense and thats alright?
This Poker Player was 26 at the time of their crime and is a Registred Sex offender as a result of it. Morals have everything to do with that. Radom ex) Your daughter/son start playing poker and end up at the same table as this player. This poker player is all patched up and wearing this companies clothing. You google this person and discover what I learned. I just don't see how anyone with any morals at all could not see how wrong it is, especially on the part of the company who hired the player. When I contacted this company it was obvious based on the answer I received they knew about this player's past. In business you always have a moral responsility to us, the consumer. You are about to buy, for example, a T-shirt from a registered sex offender for your daughter/son from a company who knew of this players offense and thats alright?
C
chloebrand
Rock Star
Silver Level
With great power, comes great responsibility...right??? I understand the purpose of your article, and I think for the most part it was good read, and very well written. But you just blasted a fellow poker player, without even taking the time to know what his side of the story was. Or did you?
Our laws have a lot of black and white in it. That is something a lot of people know, but really do not understand.
Our laws have a lot of black and white in it. That is something a lot of people know, but really do not understand.
Txpokerlover
Enthusiast
Silver Level
without even taking the time to know what his side of the story was
Did I? I don't recall ever saying if this player was male or female or using any names. There are many people who would have used a name or reference to gender, even named the companies associated with my post. I chose not to do that. Maybe you know this person or are making an assumption when you wrote "his".
I wrote this blog because I am passionate about the topic and wanted to begin a conversation about it. The answer I received from the company made me feel as though they were also looking for feedback. I can only hope that they read this and see all the different perspectives.
Thank you
Did I? I don't recall ever saying if this player was male or female or using any names. There are many people who would have used a name or reference to gender, even named the companies associated with my post. I chose not to do that. Maybe you know this person or are making an assumption when you wrote "his".
I wrote this blog because I am passionate about the topic and wanted to begin a conversation about it. The answer I received from the company made me feel as though they were also looking for feedback. I can only hope that they read this and see all the different perspectives.
Thank you
rifflemao
Pugs Not Drugs
Silver Level
I think there is some responsibility to reflect positively on the company you represent, or at least to avoid reflecting negatively.
I've seen pro players take photos of someone at a live table, presumably without their permission, for the sole purpose of berating them on Twitter. Crosses a line imo. Maybe some of those players never had a sense of common courtesy? :dontknow:
As for the company bringing on a RSO, I think it's good that you brought the issue to their attention, and then it's up to them to decide how they want to proceed. I suspect if they realized the person was going to reflect negatively on their business (and profits), then they'd probably drop them.
Mr Sandbag
Legend
Silver Level
I bet if you researched a bit about your child's favorite brands, shows, movies, actors/actresses, musicians/bands, etc. you'd find someone working for or associated with it who has done something terrible. Music and pro sports alone will offend your morals. The fact is poker is no different than anything else. The world isn't perfect and not everybody is going to agree or uphold your set of values/morals. Obviously this company's association with this person isn't causing any harm to their business; in fact they're probably benefiting from it or else they wouldn't bother.
Nobody is forcing you to wear their clothes or play poker with this person, and you can't force anyone else to stop doing so. All you can do is live by what you think is right.
Farseer
Rock Star
Silver Level
Mainly +1 to this one, though OP was rather constructive one. Although I agree that some poker companies should be more careful when choosing their partners, being them sponsored pro players or other companies they choose to co-operate with. But business is business and in most times I don't see it appropriate that business companies dig too deep to personal history and even more in matters that does not have anything to do with their business. For example personal beliefs and if they happen to play poker.
People moralizing people about how they talk (especially in internet) are doing in general more harm than good. Much better for world if people would be more honest with their feelings and emotions instead of harboring them within, which occasionally makes them implode with terrible consequences.
Also at the current situation, when there's clash of moralities with ultra-conservative christians vs. more liberal and secular people (let's say about gay rights and so on) it is truly not any more battle versus "good christian values" (which nowadays should partly certainly be condemned) and "evil people".
FromHereOn
Enthusiast
Silver Level
I appreciate the OP, but I don't know if anything moral needs to be inclusive or exclusive when it comes to poker.
Poker can appeal to a pretty morally polarized group to say the least! I'd love it if everybody who played was a good stand-up/respectful person, but we can't accomplish that on any social level anywhere: Teachers, daycare attendants, doctors, military personnel, etc.
In the vein of freedoms, if a business is so emboldened to let a felon of any kind represent them, then I have the option to not partake in their product. If somebody's Twitter feed lights up a competitor unfairly, I can unfollow... or I might not, just for the entertainment value alone (maybe I'm a degen too!).
Either way, to uphold social values and sportsmanship is a great way to stand out amongst the field and hopefully helps us make good friends. At no point could I imagine that it's reasonable to expect others to raise themselves to that as a standard that represents poker players as a whole. We're just not all good folks.
Poker can appeal to a pretty morally polarized group to say the least! I'd love it if everybody who played was a good stand-up/respectful person, but we can't accomplish that on any social level anywhere: Teachers, daycare attendants, doctors, military personnel, etc.
In the vein of freedoms, if a business is so emboldened to let a felon of any kind represent them, then I have the option to not partake in their product. If somebody's Twitter feed lights up a competitor unfairly, I can unfollow... or I might not, just for the entertainment value alone (maybe I'm a degen too!).
Either way, to uphold social values and sportsmanship is a great way to stand out amongst the field and hopefully helps us make good friends. At no point could I imagine that it's reasonable to expect others to raise themselves to that as a standard that represents poker players as a whole. We're just not all good folks.
alfiyka
Legend
Silver Level
a difficult conversation.You can stand on either side and to prove guilt or innocence.And both sides will be on your right. Are convicted for anything. Are not guilty and received punishment. In any case--they are few.But to participate in the advertising campaign needs clean people!
X
Xmaster
Rock Star
Silver Level
Very interesting article. I think your intention is good. But unfortunately this is reality and it happens again and again. You can't change people or their behavior.
My motto is: Do good things and it will come back! Karma
My motto is: Do good things and it will come back! Karma