Phil Ivey.

[Big_Rudy]

I disagree on that first point - the fact that Ivey can beat every game isn't the same as saying he's "good because he's good".

Take the other players you mentioned - Dwan, Mercier and Lamb. They're excellent NLHE and PLO players and they're certainly aggressive (Dwan in particular may be even more so than Ivey in big bet games). But they don't play every game - which is why Ivey was willing to offer Dwan such insane odds on the HORSE cash game challenge last year that got killed by Black Friday (and may not have even happened anyway).

Actually, I think that challenge really sums it up: Ivey was laying Dwan something like 25:1 on a long-term series of HORSE cash games and it wasn't a snapcall for Dwan. He acknowledged that Ivey is a huge favourite in all those games.

The question that was asked at the top of the thread was why so many people consider Phil Ivey to be the best poker player in the world. Poker is more than just NLHE and PLO - if you asked who the best NLHE player is in the world it'd probably be a much closer decision and while Ivey would certainly be near the top, he won't necessarily be number one on everybody's lists. But when you broaden it to poker in general, which encompasses all games and all formats, the list of potential number ones gets a lot smaller until Ivey is about the only one left.

FWIW if I had to pick a runner up it'd be Barry Greenstein.

Thanks, Oz, for expanding so well upon the simple point I made earlier in this thread. Ivey is widely recognized as among the top pros in every game. He isn't a specialist as so many of todays top pros are. His challenge to Dwan highlights that point.

I think many players today discount most of the other games and act like no-limit hold'em and (maybe) PLO are all there is to the poker world. In some ways this is understandable, what with TV coverage focusing exclusively on NLHE, but once you get beyond that and start looking into other games as well you'll quickly find that Ivey is at or near the top of the list of best players in any game you care to mention.

 

[MediaBLITZ]

I getcha Oz - good point - it's hard to hit all sides of an argument in a post you're trying to do in under 2 minutes. But I still think it's like saying he's "good because he's good".
Like Kurt Warner was good because he excelled in AFL and NFL - two different games with many similiar aspects. It doesn't define what made him good.
I would like to hear from you (not a challenge, just would respect your view) on what aspects of Ivey make him so good? We know he's good, feared, respected in all the games - why is that? And "because he's good at all of them" does not really answer why. MORE BELOW

I disagree on that first point - the fact that Ivey can beat every game isn't the same as saying he's "good because he's good".

Take the other players you mentioned - Dwan, Mercier and Lamb. They're excellent NLHE and PLO players and they're certainly aggressive (Dwan in particular may be even more so than Ivey in big bet games). But they don't play every game - which is why Ivey was willing to offer Dwan such insane odds on the HORSE cash game challenge last year that got killed by Black Friday (and may not have even happened anyway).
DON'T MISS THE FACT THAT:
DWAN FINISHED 5th IN LAST YEARS WSOP H.O.R.S.E. CHAMPIONSHIP
MERCIER 14th IN THE 7-CARD STUD CHAMPIONSHIP AND 7th IN DRAW LOWBALL
LAMB 8th IN THE POKER PLAYER'S CHAMPIONSHIP (like HORSE with more obscure games)
I do acknowledge that these guys are the up and comers who have yet to arrive near the staus of Phil Ivey, but they are coming.
Actually, I tha ink that challenge really sums it up: Ivey was laying Dwan something like 25:1 on a long-term series of HORSE cash games and it wasn't a snapcall for Dwan. He acknowledged that Ivey is a huge favourite in all those games.

The question that was asked at the top of the thread was why so many people consider Phil Ivey to be the best poker player in the world. Poker is more than just NLHE and PLO - if you asked who the best NLHE player is in the world it'd probably be a much closer decision and while Ivey would certainly be near the top, he won't necessarily be number one on everybody's lists. But when you broaden it to poker in general, which encompasses all games and all formats, the list of potential number ones gets a lot smaller until Ivey is about the only one left.
AGREED -
FWIW if I had to pick a runner up it'd be Barry Greenstein.
WOW!!!

 

[Big_Rudy]

I would like to hear from you (not a challenge, just would respect your view) on what aspects of Ivey make him so good? We know he's good, feared, respected in all the games - why is that? And "because he's good at all of them" does not really answer why.

Actually, this could get pretty interesting. I mean, for example, exactly what skills are most important to make someone world-class in, say, Stud v. Hold'em v. Razz, v...... You get the idea. Or, put another way, what skills does Ivey have that make him a top Razz player? A top Stud player, etc, etc....

 

[dj11]

I think Ivy is good because of that baby poker face he has......

 

[Big_Rudy]

And the psyco eyes when he's starin' you down...

 

[Poker Orifice]

I have my own opinions/thoughts on why I think Ivey is the best (many have been mentioned above already), but when I hear many of his peers (the top pros) saying that he is the best, this has merit to me as I have a feeling they have more of a clue what they're talking about than I do. (< this is why I stated that... not for this reason > 'duh... the pros say he is').

 

[-Phil Ivey27]

I getcha Oz - good point - it's hard to hit all sides of an argument in a post you're trying to do in under 2 minutes. But I still think it's like saying he's "good because he's good".
Like Kurt Warner was good because he excelled in AFL and NFL - two different games with many similiar aspects. It doesn't define what made him good.
I would like to hear from you (not a challenge, just would respect your view) on what aspects of Ivey make him so good? We know he's good, feared, respected in all the games - why is that? And "because he's good at all of them" does not really answer why. MORE BELOW

So Dwan, Mercier, and Lamb are right behind Ivey because they've had one or two good years? Strong tournament placings? Mind you Ivey had disappeared from the game for awhile due to Black Friday and continued his assassination of the game and it's players when he came back.

The only one who you could put in that class is Tom Dwan if you would really like to make an argument, and even he has to win some bracelets and do this for years before he's considered in the league of Ivey.

If you would like to see what Ivey thinks of Mercier's great skill btw.. Check out High Stakes Poker when Mercier trys to pull a bluff with his respective $200,000 stack, that I respect a lot btw, on Ivey and it takes him no longer than a minute to make the call with a mediocre hand.

P.S. if you really wonder why he is feared and respected, try not fearing or respecting the man and see how your play works out against him. Seriously, I dare you.

Dwan had his own near heart attack confrontation with Ivey when he pulled off one of the biggest bluffs ever on High Stakes Poker, and as he bets near $270,000 on the river of a $350,000 or so pot (making it $620,000 or so) against him Ivey sits there for near 5 minutes contemplating what would be the most brilliant call of all time with a pair of 6's on a board with K J 10 2 6. He ends up mucking, but even the fact he was thinking so hard is brilliant to us all.

If you want to give anyone the title of greatest poker player, or even the greatest NLHE poker player in the world, they'll have to take it from Ivey first. He'll play them anytime and anywhere, his preference at least $50,000/$100,000 blinds, be sure to bring your piggy bank.

 

[OzExorcist]

I would like to hear from you (not a challenge, just would respect your view) on what aspects of Ivey make him so good? We know he's good, feared, respected in all the games - why is that? And "because he's good at all of them" does not really answer why. MORE BELOW

DON'T MISS THE FACT THAT:
DWAN FINISHED 5th IN LAST YEARS WSOP H.O.R.S.E. CHAMPIONSHIP
MERCIER 14th IN THE 7-CARD STUD CHAMPIONSHIP AND 7th IN DRAW LOWBALL
LAMB 8th IN THE POKER PLAYER'S CHAMPIONSHIP (like HORSE with more obscure games)
I do acknowledge that these guys are the up and comers who have yet to arrive near the staus of Phil Ivey, but they are coming.

Those are some solid results in mixed game tournaments, sure. Don't ignore the fact though that Dwan was entering every tournament in a desperate bid to ship a big prop bet, so it was inevitable he was going to run deep in something. And I'm not saying these guys can't play mixed games - I'm just saying that NLHE and PLO are far and away their best games. They're arguably among the top players in the world in big bet games, but when it comes to all the others they wouldn't even be close. Still good, but nowhere near the best. (You missed a triple-draw final table for Mercier in 2011, BTW - he finished 6th)

Ivey didn't play the wsop this year, but take his previous two years: two bracelets in 2009 (2-7NL and O8/Stud8) and another one in 2010 (HORSE). Where the guys mentioned above make final tables, Ivey closes and wins them. Put simply, he's still leagues ahead of Lamb, Mercier, Dwan et al when it comes to games outside of NLHE and PLO and they would almost certainly tell you that themselves. Dwan at the very least has said it in relation to the HORSE cash game challenge I mentioned above.

As to what makes Ivey so good at all these games, I don't claim to be smart enough or have anywhere near enough information to give a definitive answer - and the reality is there just isn't a single, neat and tidy answer. It'll be a multitude of factors all coming together.

I've read comments from a lot of top players to the effect that Ivey adjusts to his opponents better than anyone out there, and that would certainly be a big part of it. I know Barry Greenstein has commented before that Ivey spends a lot of time studying his opponents. Those are just two things though, and the reality is that he'll be the player who puts all the required skills together best: reading people, putting them on ranges, bet sizing, controlled aggression, adjusting, learning and developing away from the table, and more besides. The thing that makes him the best of the best is that he does everything well and he doesn't really have any leaks (when it comes to poker, at least - craps may be a different story).

 

[dlam]

So Dwan, Mercier, and Lamb are right behind Ivey because they've had one or two good years? Strong tournament placings? Mind you Ivey had disappeared from the game for awhile due to Black Friday and continued his assassination of the game and it's players when he came back.

The only one who you could put in that class is Tom Dwan if you would really like to make an argument, and even he has to win some bracelets and do this for years before he's considered in the league of Ivey.
If you would like to see what Ivey thinks of Mercier's great skill btw.. Check out High Stakes Poker when Mercier trys to pull a bluff with his respective $200,000 stack, that I respect a lot btw, on Ivey and it takes him no longer than a minute to make the call with a mediocre hand.

P.S. if you really wonder why he is feared and respected, try not fearing or respecting the man and see how your play works out against him. Seriously, I dare you.

Dwan had his own near heart attack confrontation with Ivey when he pulled off one of the biggest bluffs ever on High Stakes Poker, and as he bets near $270,000 on the river of a $350,000 or so pot (making it $620,000 or so) against him Ivey sits there for near 5 minutes contemplating what would be the most brilliant call of all time with a pair of 6's on a board with K J 10 2 6. He ends up mucking, but even the fact he was thinking so hard is brilliant to us all.

If you want to give anyone the title of greatest poker player, or even the greatest NLHE poker player in the world, they'll have to take it from Ivey first. He'll play them anytime and anywhere, his preference at least $50,000/$100,000 blinds, be sure to bring your piggy bank.

Yea i like that episode when Phil looked like he really was considering calling that overbet by Durrr with a pair of 6 only.....remember him saying that would be a sick call.....incredible instants to smell that someting might be up with Dwan on that hand.
I also like a couple others....that are really impressive some my other favs are
1) Ivey 10,8 s 5bets Dwan off his 87o preflop
2) Ivey (Qh,8h) 5bets Jackson off (6,5o) on the flop with a 7c,Jc,Jh flop.

 

[MediaBLITZ]

Thanks for the Mercier add -
I do reiterate - "I do acknowledge that these guys are the up and comers who have yet to arrive near the status of Phil Ivey, but they are coming."
So if anyone is looking for me to argue the point that Ivey is not clearly the best - hold your breath. I'm just saying there are some guys coming up (not next year or the year after or the year after that) who seem to take seriously having a complete game. No doubt Ivey is their inspiration and a demi-god to them.
And you're right - if Ivey plays last years WSOP his stats probably would look like all of theirs combined, or better.
And yeah, Ivey pwns Dwan (and doesn't seem to like him one bit either).
Ivey's challenge is familiar - staying on top when a new hungry breed is prowling their way up the mountain. History tells us records are made to be broken and the best will be supplanted. The hard part is a lot of these new guys run in packs and are helping each other become better. Who is helping Ivey?

Those are some solid results in mixed game tournaments, sure. Don't ignore the fact though that Dwan was entering every tournament in a desperate bid to ship a big prop bet, so it was inevitable he was going to run deep in something. And I'm not saying these guys can't play mixed games - I'm just saying that NLHE and PLO are far and away their best games. They're arguably among the top players in the world in big bet games, but when it comes to all the others they wouldn't even be close. Still good, but nowhere near the best. (You missed a triple-draw final table for Mercier in 2011, BTW - he finished 6th)
Ivey didn't play the WSOP this year, but take his previous two years: two bracelets in 2009 (2-7NL and O8/Stud8) and another one in 2010 (HORSE). Where the guys mentioned above make final tables, Ivey closes and wins them. Put simply, he's still leagues ahead of Lamb, Mercier, Dwan et al when it comes to games outside of NLHE and PLO and they would almost certainly tell you that themselves. Dwan at the very least has said it in relation to the HORSE cash game challenge I mentioned above.
As to what makes Ivey so good at all these games, I don't claim to be smart enough or have anywhere near enough information to give a definitive answer - and the reality is there just isn't a single, neat and tidy answer. It'll be a multitude of factors all coming together.
I've read comments from a lot of top players to the effect that Ivey adjusts to his opponents better than anyone out there, and that would certainly be a big part of it. I know Barry Greenstein has commented before that Ivey spends a lot of time studying his opponents. Those are just two things though, and the reality is that he'll be the player who puts all the required skills together best: reading people, putting them on ranges, bet sizing, controlled aggression, adjusting, learning and developing away from the table, and more besides. The thing that makes him the best of the best is that he does everything well and he doesn't really have any leaks (when it comes to poker, at least - craps may be a different story).

 

[-Phil Ivey27]

Ivey is to busy chasing and being on his own record breaking tear.

Ivey and Dwan I believe are friends considering they make so many prop bets against each other, including the $1 Million bet that Ivey can't eat meat for a full year.

And no one needs to help Ivey.

 

[essambb]

he is pretty good live player but i never saw a huge winning session for him live holdem any way becouse he like to play big either he win big or lose big in this big games he defenetly run good make good laydowns but it is all about getting good cards int the right time

 

[MediaBLITZ]

but it is all about getting good cards int the right time

Absolutely right - when are you available to play?

 

[Big_Rudy]

he is pretty good live player...

This is pretty-much spot-on....Assuming that by "pretty good", you generally mean the best in the world.

 

[OzExorcist]

...and one of the biggest winners of all time online as well.