MUCKING CARDS

[JOEBOB69]

Ok in a called pot i still don't understand why should the dealer or players have to tell the guy to turn up is hand.If the player loses money for that simple mistake then it's a mistake that will not happen again(leason learned).Other players should still keep there mouth shut an like i said before when the player announces two pair all the dealer should do is say king high straight an push the board up.Thats what they do in my casnio that i play an i don't understand how it's the dealers job to teach the game to the newbie just correctly announce the winning hand.

 

[OzExorcist]

In the WSOP the dealer reached over to that one chick's cards when she was already all in and they ruled her cards mucked. If that wasn't a time for fairness I don't know what is.

I stand by my rule. Keep your mouth shut. If I lose a hand because I muck my hand (and I HAVE before), so be it. If I lose a pot because someone chimes in when something like this happens I'd be pissed. Keep it to yourself.

1 - Absolutely that was a time for fairness, and that's why the floor was called over. The problem there was that the cards couldn't be positively identified - when the floor looked at them they weren't the cards the player claimed they should have been. At that point there's really nothing that can be done, fair or otherwise.

2 - Zorba has it. What Grossberger and I are saying is that once a hand has gone to showdown and the cards have been turned over, if a mistake is about to happen you're obliged to say something.

If the hand hasn't gone to showdown, or it has, one player has shown their hand and the other just mucks then absolutely keep your mouth shut because you can't know there's a mistake in progress.

Note too that OP is talking about a tournament, not a cash game. Tournament rules typically require all hands to be turned face up at showdown which is one of the main reasons I'd have wanted to prevent Player A from mucking her cards - they're supposed to be turned over anyway and Player B is playing the board. Cash games don't usually have that rule and the situation would be treated differently.

 

[Kasanova King]

I can't believe there is so much debate over this - and I don't want to be rude in any way but in EVERY casino I have played at, if you muck, the hand is dead, plain and simple. Now I have seen people agree to chop b/c the opponent was a nice person and let them - and the dealer & floor manager agreed as well - but that only happened because the person who would have won the hand b/c the other mucked was a nice old man, not there to make money.

And for the 2 cards up rule, that generally is enforced, depending on the table & players. In the vast majority of cases if a player only shows one card and has the winning hand with just the one card, the losing player usually mucks and that's why the player who only showed one card wins - not necessarily b/c he had the best hand (although he did) but b/c his opponent mucked.

 

[byng0]

Ivey mucked a winning flush in the WSOP but kept quiet because he knew it was gone.

Two Rules:

1. Never muck your hand until you doublecheck the board.
2. If you're not in the hand, SHUT YOUR MOUTH.

Could not agree more !!!!!! :icon_sant

 

[Roger1960]

This post and peoples answers is why I read the blog from the dealer, he says that when it is mucked it is mucked. You lost. casinos have a strict set of rules and it is wise to know these before hand.

 

[Grossberger]

Ok in a called pot i still don't understand why should the dealer or players have to tell the guy to turn up is hand.If the player loses money for that simple mistake then it's a mistake that will not happen again(leason learned).Other players should still keep there mouth shut an like i said before when the player announces two pair all the dealer should do is say king high straight an push the board up.Thats what they do in my casnio that i play an i don't understand how it's the dealers job to teach the game to the newbie just correctly announce the winning hand.

Thats not what we are saying no player or dealer should TELL a player to turn their hand up that is against the rules. The OP's situation is that a player miscalled their hand saying they had 2 pair and the other player could not beat 2 pair however the board had a straight. And was not pointed out until the player mucked due to misinformation. thats where this rule comes into play.
2. Cards thrown into the muck may be ruled dead. However, a hand that is clearly identifiable may be retrieved and ruled live at management’s discretion if doing so is in the best interest of the game. An extra effort should be made to rule a hand retrievable if it was folded as a result of incorrect information given to the player.

I can't believe there is so much debate over this - and I don't want to be rude in any way but in EVERY casino I have played at, if you muck, the hand is dead, plain and simple. Now I have seen people agree to chop b/c the opponent was a nice person and let them - and the dealer & floor manager agreed as well - but that only happened because the person who would have won the hand b/c the other mucked was a nice old man, not there to make money.

And for the 2 cards up rule, that generally is enforced, depending on the table & players. In the vast majority of cases if a player only shows one card and has the winning hand with just the one card, the losing player usually mucks and that's why the player who only showed one card wins - not necessarily b/c he had the best hand (although he did) but b/c his opponent mucked.

Again see above as to the misinformation

This post and peoples answers is why I read the blog from the dealer, he says that when it is mucked it is mucked. You lost. Casinos have a strict set of rules and it is wise to know these before hand.

See above.^^

The problem with this is it falls in the gray area of the rules.One player mucks due to misinformation and no one in the game realized the board was a straight until the player had mucked.

 

[Ecomdan]

I've pointed out dealer errors before, although I wasn't involved in the hand... two guys were heads up, one had AJ the other had AT I think the board was A KK Q 5 or something like that... the guy with AT thought he lost, the dealer seemed to think the same, even though both hands were turned face up the dealer flipped the AT hand over and started to push the pot toward mister AJ til I said "uhhh, that's a split pot if I'm not mistaken neither of their kickers play" and then another guy piped up and agreed... much to the delight of mister AT who didn't even realize.

 

[Grossberger]

I've pointed out dealer errors before, although I wasn't involved in the hand... two guys were heads up, one had AJ the other had AT I think the board was A KK Q 5 or something like that... the guy with AT thought he lost, the dealer seemed to think the same, even though both hands were turned face up the dealer flipped the AT hand over and started to push the pot toward mister AJ til I said "uhhh, that's a split pot if I'm not mistaken neither of their kickers play" and then another guy piped up and agreed... much to the delight of mister AT who didn't even realize.

^^^^ ABSOLUTLY CORRECT IN DOING SO^^^^^

 

[Eeyore]

Some poker rules say that players who are not in the hand are not allowed to discuss the hand. Would that also include pointing out winners who think they are losing?

With no live experience, but just from reading this thread I would always point out such a thing; it's a win-win situation, you will tilt one person and another may be grateful to you.

 

[Tom1559]

Dealer called it right in my book.

 

[JOEBOB69]

2. Cards thrown into the muck may be ruled dead. However, a hand that is clearly identifiable may be retrieved and ruled live at management’s discretion if doing so is in the best interest of the game. An extra effort should be made to rule a hand retrievable if it was folded as a result of incorrect information given to the player.

Where are yall playing at that the dealer doesn't instandly put the cards in the deck when a player mucks?I've played damn near every where in the U.S an when a player mucks the dealer rakes them in the deck.

 

[Jack Daniels]

Where are yall playing at that the dealer doesn't instandly put the cards in the deck when a player mucks?I've played damn near every where in the U.S an when a player mucks the dealer rakes them in the deck.

I've never seen a professional casino dealer EVER put mucked cards back in the deck during a hand. They do NOT do that in Vegas, Reno, Atlantic city, Illinois, Florida, New York, or Wisconsin (those are the places I've actually played). I've never even seen anyone do something like that in any home game I've ever been in. There is a muck pile and all cards are swept into the pile hence the rule of being able to retrieve cards from the muck. And it's the same regardless of ring game or tourney; standard poker. If you're playing in a game where they are putting cards back into the deck, then that game is the exception. It isn't done that way in 99.99% of casino games.

 

[JOEBOB69]

Jack it was at the end of the hand in a cash game heads up.An you have never seen the dealer put the cards back in the folded\burn cards an mix them up at the end of the game getting ready for the next hand?Very strange because if have played in all those places exept new york also.PlusMiss,Lousiana,Oklahoma,Cali, Connecticut an so on.An i have always seen this.

 

[Jack Daniels]

Jack it was at the end of the hand in a cash game heads up.

The hand wound up HU, but the game wasn't so being HU is irrelevant. There was a muck pile sitting on the table as the two remaining players played to the end of the hand. That muck pile was not picked up as the hand progressed.

An you have never seen the dealer put the cards back in the folded\burn cards an mix them up at the end of the game getting ready for the next hand?

Not in the middle of a hand. At the end of the hand the muck, the burn cards, and the remaining deck are all put back together, but that is at the end of the hand. You said:

Where are yall playing at that the dealer doesn't instandly put the cards in the deck when a player mucks?

I've played damn near every where in the U.S an when a player mucks the dealer rakes them in the deck.

I'll take a sidebet on this. Pick up the phone and call any public, regulated poker room in Vegas and ask them if the their dealers keep a muck pile on the table throughout a hand or if their dealers pick up the folded cards as they are folded and put them back into the deck immediately as players muck. Alternatively you can watch any of the umpteen youtube videos people keep posting and see the muck pile build throughout the hand...here's a nice clean example of the muck pile forming and staying on the table as players fold around: https://www.cardschat.com/f53/ivey-vs-matusow-million-dollar-cash-164041/

 

[OzExorcist]

Jack it was at the end of the hand in a cash game heads up.An you have never seen the dealer put the cards back in the folded\burn cards an mix them up at the end of the game getting ready for the next hand?Very strange because if have played in all those places exept new york also.PlusMiss,Lousiana,Oklahoma,Cali, Connecticut an so on.An i have always seen this.

JD has it, the muck pile should be separate from the rest of the deck.

Once all of the action is complete and the winner has been paid then yes, the dealer obviously brings all 52 cards together and starts the deal for the next hand. But until then there's a separate muck pile and it should stay separate even when the dealer mucks the deck after dealing the river.

 

[Grossberger]

Some poker rules say that players who are not in the hand are not allowed to discuss the hand. Would that also include pointing out winners who think they are losing?

With no live experience, but just from reading this thread I would always point out such a thing; it's a win-win situation, you will tilt one person and another may be grateful to you.

We are not saying anything about discussing the hand, that's against the rules. The whole point is Player A declared 2 pair when in fact the straight on board was the best hand and nobody caught this until player b mucked because of mis information. Now had Player A just turned over and not said a word and then player B looked at the board and mucked then I would say player a wins the pot. But when player A verbally declares 2 pair when in fact the board plays it should be a split pot. even though player B or anyone else at the table noticed the straight on board til he mucked.

Here is a scenario for all those people that say he mucked so its mucked.
Ok lets say your in a hand and another player bets out on the river and the pot is 300-400 dollars you call and the player announces he has a flush and you muck your 2 pair then he turns up his cards and you see he didn't have the flush and your 2 pair were good are you gonna say OH WELL I mucked I can't win the pot??? No your gonna say wait he said he had a flush but didn't, and the other player just simply mis read his hand. That's why the rule is in place to retrieve a mucked hand because of mis information.

Now where I think this whole situation (thread topic) is different is the fact the best hand was on the board. It's not a case where the other players cards were the winning hand. Also you can say that it's the players fault for not properly reading his hand or the board but again NOBODY at the table caught it until cards were mucked.This is a special circumstance that I believe should have been resolved by spliting the pot.

 

[peacebrother]

This can all be solved ALWAYS PROTECT YOUR CARDS!!!!!!!!
Especially seat 1 and 9-10 depending on how many chairs the are. I have seen it time and time again.

As far as taking a pot you lost, by a misread. Man up karma will be your friend.

 

[Jack Daniels]

This can all be solved ALWAYS PROTECT YOUR CARDS!!!!!!!!
Especially seat 1 and 9-10 depending on how many chairs the are. I have seen it time and time again.

This would be useful info if this thread had anything to do with mucking unprotected hands. I'm surprised that the other 40 replies didn't tip you off.

 

[JOEBOB69]

I must have misunderstood what yall where saying.Because my whole point was after the river is dealt the dearler counts the deck then places the remaining deck on the muck pile. When a player folds dealer puts the cards with the others waiting for the winning players cards before he\she washes the cards.My whole point is i don't see how you could know which card was which when they go into the pile.

 

[Grossberger]

This would be useful info if this thread had anything to do with mucking unprotected hands. I'm surprised that the other 40 replies didn't tip you off.

Beat me to it LOL

 

[Grossberger]

I must have misunderstood what yall where saying.Because my whole point was after the river is dealt the dearler counts the deck then places the remaining deck on the muck pile. When a player folds dealer puts the cards with the others waiting for the winning players cards before he\she washes the cards.My whole point is i don't see how you could know which card was which when they go into the pile.

I have yet to see a dealer in a casino count the deck after each hand, wow talk about not getting alot of hands in. I have played in 8 different casinos mainly Mountaineer and in all that I have played in never seen them count the deck after each deal, now with Mountaineer they use card shufflers but i heard they are gonna get rid of them. However I think other places should do what they do and its very similar to what blackjack dealers do and that is as each player mucks they put the cards on top of each other, meaning Player A,B,C,D all muck in order Player A's cards would be on bottom and player D's would be on top and so forth, this makes cards more retrievable if a problem occurs because the dealer would have put the last player to muck cards on top and therefore clearly identifiable.

 

[JOEBOB69]

Yeah not all casinos count the remaining deck after the river but alot do.