Losing Money by Not Playing Poker???

C

chronicdog

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This never occurred to me before. I've played poker for years, since I was 16, I'm 30 now, but only in the last 18 months become a student of the NLHE game and truly learned its ins and outs. Read books. Practiced. A lot. Watched High Stakes Poker. A lot.

My hero on that show is Sammy Farha. What balls. I would say my play style is between that and Matusow (the two loosest players, some would say worst, on the show). Talk, bluff, raise, reraise, reload, etc. Action players. Any 2 cards. Etc.,

So, the litmus test for my live poker skills was a 5 day trip to Vegas last week. This was my first time playing in a casino (I've played 1-2NLHE on the internet and in home games).

I went to the MGM and asked for 1-2 NLHE, and was told there was a 30min wait but no wait for 2-5 NLHE. So I took the opportunity, expecting to lose some cash for an education in live poker.

Much to my surprise, the table was filled with tight weak players. There were no true gamblers there. So I started gambling, and pushing people around. Just having fun, seeing how the table would react to overtly agressive play. I was drinking and talking up a storm. Everyone else was quiet except one redsox fan who I bantered with about baseball.

Again, much to my suprise, the chips started piling up. I was reraising every 3 hands, and people were folding. I went all in for $400 on a $200 pot with nothing but the second nut flush draw, hoping for a TP TK fold, he called, river was a club, I doubled up. I got a ton of action from that point on. I gambled, I won. I played tight, I won. It was one of those trips.

Basically, similar scenarios played out over the next 5 days. The only time I busted out was in $65 tourneys and when I went all in with my $400 buy in into a raised pot with top two pair on the flop and homeboy called with a set of queens. Hey nice hand man, reload, aggro, aggro, collect chips, leave with $1000.

The last day at the 2-5 NLHE game I was playing with some professionals. One guy said he had quit his job about a year ago and just hung around busting tourists for a living. The other guy, about 55 years old, he had on two gold watches, a fishing hat, and some big old sunglasses. Said NADA all night, excpet muttered under his breath when he would raise the pot preflop and I would reraise him, and he would fold. I did this mostly with AQ offsuit and other gambling hands like that. Yes, I showed these hands a lot to get some action, and action I got on my made hands.

I also had some great folds, but those are boring, right? Well, just one. I had A6 of hearts, raised preflop with 1 caller and the flop comes A 10 J rainbow. I bet out half the pot, he calls. Next card, is a black low card, I check. He checks. River is a black jack. I bet out half the pot again, he reraises for most of my chips (he has a ton) I think for a bit and show him the Ace. The says "Thats Huge" and I instafold. He curses and shows AJ for a boat.

Last hand, I'm up about $300 on a $400 buy in. I get K2 of clubs on the button. This is one of my favorite hands. Out loud, I actually say "you gotta be kidding me" bercause I HAVE TO play this hand. I actually was not going to play, was already stacking my winnings into the chip tray but the dealer delt me in anyway. Bless his heart.

I raise to 25 and kinda hope everyone folds cause I have dinner reservations in 5 minutes, but Mr. Professional Poker to my right is not about to let me get away with another steal. He reraises me another 50 and I call. Lets gamble baby.

Flop is Ks Jc 2h

He checks

I bet out the pot and hope to take it down right there and goto dinner.

He calls. So, hes got a Big King at the least, right? Maybe set of Johnnies?

I'm probably ahead and feel comfortable I have the best hand.

Turn is another Jack, a red one. Wow, I'm either way ahead or way behind now. At this point I start to get a little bit concerned. The pot is massive and my hand improved to two pair but now my 2 is no good, and any king beats me. Deciding to FORCE MYSELF to bet out, I bet out half the $450 pot, which is leaving me pot committed. He calls

Oh no, this is gonna be baaad.

River is 8s.

He checks.

I go all in.

He calls with Ace Queen and says good hand when I show a King.

Wow. He misplayed that hand pretty badly if you ask me. He though I misplayed it. Probably some of both. The guy across the table called me "crazy kid" and someone else muttered "kamikaze poker." Hahaha.

"Mr Pro" must have thought my "kidding me" comment then raise 5x BB was some sort of bluff-tell? How could he call there? I guess hes "the pro" who doesn't have to work.

Did I donk my chips into my own wallet on this one??? Hahaha.



Well, I did really well over the trip and basically paid for the trip with my winnings, at least most of it. The Lobster tasting with wine pairing at Nobhill probably came out of my wallet, and let me tell you, it was worth every penny.

So I live in NYC and have nowhere to play live here. The internet doesnt really appeal to me as you can't tell who is drinking, who is tired and yawning, who is steaming and who is raising without looking at their cards (uh that last one was me).

Am I losing money by not playing more poker? The income from my "regular job" (you would laugh if you knew what it was) combined with my lack of expenses, gives me at least 5 figures of disposable income every year that I would be fine losing or winning with. I squander it anyway. I have tons of extra time. Mostly I play music and video games in my spare time but poker could actually act as a second income, IF I had somewhere to play.

Is this worth pursuing? I DON"T want to turn pro. I love my work and I love playing poker as an outlet, and I would HATE to HAVE TO win to meet expenses - also, it would change the way I play, diminishing my agression. I said I would be fine losing but in truth I hate losing at games more than anything in the wolrd, and if I ever started losing regularly, or ran bad for a few months or a year I think it would be easy for me to walk away for a while and go back and study. I am addicted to winning, that goes for any game I play in life, the money is just the recepit from the poker table that shows you played well.


Tournaments, not for me. Cash games, yes. But is the internet worth the hassle? I think I have a huge edge playing live vs online, as I am a very perceptive person with tells, facial ticks, and betting mannerisms. Also, the games seem tougher online. Driving 2 hrs every weekend to AC or Foxwoods? Maybe if I had a poker buddy but right now I am flying solo.

Man, I love this game so much I can't even concentrate on work right now (Vegas hangover). I really, really want to continue playing on a regular basis, but can't quite convince myself that its the right thing to do (and if my trip won't convince me, what will?????)


Thanks guys, sorry for making you read so much!
 
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hott_estelle

hott_estelle

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I also had some great folds, but those are boring, right? Well, just one. I had A6 of hearts, raised preflop with 1 caller and the flop comes A 10 J rainbow. I bet out half the pot, he calls. Next card, is a black low card, I check. He checks. River is a black jack. I bet out half the pot again, he reraises for most of my chips (he has a ton) I think for a bit and show him the Ace. The says "Thats Huge" and I instafold. He curses and shows AJ for a boat.

OK, two things right away. How old are you and how long have you been playing poker? You might have mentioned these in your posts, but it was a bit long for me to sift through all of it.

And another thing, folding A6 right there on this hand, is not a great lay down, it is a routine fold. And if you have yet to see this, which by your opinion to your play I can tell you havn't, then you definitely are not ready to play poker for a living. (Also, I don't exactly want to analyze your play, because you didn'nt mention any reads on the people there, but on that hand, why in the world do you raise half the pot on the river? Not a smart play at all.)

Sorry for being harsh, just telling you about reality.
 
C

chronicdog

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Estelle,

If you read my post you'll see that A) I have no need or desire to play poker for a living and B) the point of the A6 example was not to show what a great fold, but to show why I folded (i.e., not the cards on the board, but the reaction to my showing the opponent my ace).

My point was not to show what a great player I am; I am above average but not great. My point was that I think most people are even worse, and playing more could be profitable aside from really fun.

I was honestly just shocked at the cards I got called with..... people asking me "are my 3s good???"

People see me raise 25 before the flop with J2 and they start licking their chops ;-)

OK, so 1 vote from "Hott Estelle" for me being "not smart at all." Ummmkay. Does anyone else have anything to add????
 
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hott_estelle

hott_estelle

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I also had some great folds, but those are boring, right? Well, just one. I had A6 of hearts, raised preflop with 1 caller and the flop comes A 10 J rainbow. I bet out half the pot, he calls. Next card, is a black low card, I check. He checks. River is a black jack. I bet out half the pot again, he reraises for most of my chips (he has a ton) I think for a bit and show him the Ace. The says "Thats Huge" and I instafold. He curses and shows AJ for a boat.


Man, I love this game so much I can't even concentrate on work right now (Vegas hangover). I really, really want to continue playing on a regular basis, but can't quite convince myself that its the right thing to do (and if my trip won't convince me, what will?????)


Thanks guys, sorry for making you read so much!

I read as much as I could. And from the bolded above, you said yourself you were giving an example of a great post.

And for the 2nd part, by "regular basis" and your comment about work, I assumed you wanted to change professions and start playing poker for a living. Also, from your title, I thought that's what you meant. I may have assumed wrong, but I don't think I did.

Like I said before, I'm not being harsh--or not trying to--just was telling you my opinion. I don't shy away from telling it like it is.

Oh, and welcome to the forum. Lots of people here you can learn a lot from--one of the best ways to learn to to discuss how to play poker with other players.
 
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C

chronicdog

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Is it still a great fold if he flips over Q9? It all the sudden becomes horrible. I dunno.... thats the problem in poker. You can second guess every hand, and often, misplaying wins you the hand.

One thing I do know is, I'm hooked. Line. Sinker. Done. Help.
 
tosborn

tosborn

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You came to the right place. This forum is a great place to learn the game that we all love. Read, read, and read some more and I'm sure you will learn a whole lot.

Estelle is right when she says that you appear to be somewhat new to Hold'em. I think that your post just come out a little arrogant. I'm not sure if you meant for it too or not. Anyway, stick around and learn what you can. There are a ton of great poker players here, including Estelle.
 
ChuckTs

ChuckTs

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Welcome to the forums, chronic - nice first post :)

In response to your thread, I don't really know what to tell you. You sound much more like a live player than an online one, and you may not do as well online.

Completely agree with Estelle about the A6 fold...

Is it still a great fold if he flips over Q9? It all the sudden becomes horrible. I dunno.... thats the problem in poker. You can second guess every hand, and often, misplaying wins you the hand.


Yes.

To simplify things: if you've got 99 on a AAKQ board, and your opponent bets hard into you, you've got a routine fold right? Because most of the time, your opponent will have any ace, king, queen, JT or TT to have you beat. So this time he shows you 72 for a bluff when you fold - does that make your fold bad? Of course not. Your fold was routine because you're way behind your opponent's hand range. There's of course a small chance that he's betting with absolutely nothing, but the majority of the time he's got something you are wayyyy behind to.

Your hand is obviously different, but you're still behind his range there, and it should be a routine fold.
 
dj11

dj11

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Tickled to hear great Vegas WIn stories, mine is blackjack and the lady I should have married.

I would imagine that from many places in NYC there are group busses to AC if not daily, then for the weekends. Many may even be free. casinos want you there, and will sometimes pay to get you there. Used to be that way in Vegas for us Angelinos.

I liked the almost insight that you gave us on being LAG. I am still looking for that definitive essay about LAG players. How to be one, and how to beat one.

Welcome to CC, you just might find something here that helps you......
 
hott_estelle

hott_estelle

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Is it still a great fold if he flips over Q9? It all the sudden becomes horrible. I dunno.... thats the problem in poker. You can second guess every hand, and often, misplaying wins you the hand.

Still a routine fold. Unless you're making a great read, and you know he's bluffing you, its a routine fold. Trust me, you'll learn.

EDIT: Sorry, just saw Chuck already posted an answer, just read his answer, it's a bit more thorough. Thanks Chuck.
 
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The_Flash

The_Flash

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I'm going to sound like an extreme rookie, but I'm kind of new to the online poker scene (and more broadly, the poker scene in general) and am looking for good places to do some reading and learn some tips and tricks of the trade. You've mentioned that there's a lot of them on this site, but could you be more specific for us n00bies?

-Btw, I'd like to play a few better players sometime online just to see where I fare... I know I'm nowhere near a professional range, I was just curious if someone would be up for an exhibition round on FullTilt for some play money chips. As of yet, I don't have real money to play with.
 
wsorbust

wsorbust

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Pick up a good book: "Super System" or "Harrington on Hold'em".

You want to play some No Limit Hold'em on poker stars in the plays, I'm up for it...? Not that I'm saying I'm great or anything... PM me...better yet. . .I will.
 
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