Grossberger
Cardschat Elite
Silver Level
Well this is a given as you have to show both cads to win any portion of the pot, if you were to show the ace of clubs on a 4 club non paired board and muck the other card your entire hand would be considered dead.
As for #5 again I would rather give the image as a strong player than afish because acting like a fish could cost you with people trying to trap you with crappy hands and catching. I mean the difference could be showing that your a strong player gets you 1 maybe 2 callers when you raise wioth Aces b=acting like a fish could get you 5-6 callers when you raise with aces the difference, lets say you raise with Aces and have a weak image and get 5 callers with any 2 cards you are now only have a 35% advantage whereas if you show a strong image and raise and get 1 caller you have a 80% advantage.
Plus think of it this way if you look at your cards before its your turn now your thinking in your head what your gonna do with that hand and may miss a tell on another player. This has happened to me many times I'll be watching how the other players act when they look at their cards and pick up on things, I've seen players almost muck then look at their position and raise. I've seen players look at their cards and then readjust their seat which usually means they are strong.
P
ph_il
...
Silver Level
Some of my own to add, Do's and Don'ts
-Don't be a table pro. I hate playing live games and there is somewhere there to throw out statistics, odds, numbers, etc. They're also the ones who tend to berate another player's mistakes.
-Wearing a No Limit Texas Hold 'Em shirt with a skull in a cowboy hat, smoking a cigar and holding A8 suited in it's bony hands with your wrap-around rayban sunglasses and your death stare doesn't make you a good/look like a good player. You just look like a douche...and you probably play like one, too.
-While your goal is to take money from other players, it doesn't hurt to be friendly. I like to have a friendly, talkative, just-here-to-have-fun image while keeping my goals in mind. If you're the table jerk, you're going to have a lot of people gunning for you. Also, by talking to other people about general stuff, you can get an idea if they're playing for fun or if they take the game a bit more seriously.
-Bring gum. This is one of my favorite tricks. Having something to share with the table is a very nice gesture when trying to promote a nice, friendly image. After, I've established a friendly image, I like to pull out a pack of gum (preferably one that last a long time) take one, and then offer it to the table. If I'm lucky, I'll get quite a few people accepting because who doesn't like gum?
Chewing gum is natural, just like breathing. You just do it automatically when if pop it in your mouth and you'll continue chewing as long as it remains in your mouth. When it comes to poker, if a player is bluffing, they usually tend to try and not do anything that'll get them noticed. And the things we do subconsciously, we become a bit more conscious about. For example: breathing. We don't think about inhaling and exhaling, we just do it...but if we're trying to bluff at a big pot, we might become fully aware of our breathing pattern and might think..."let me hold my breath so they won't notice I'm breathing hard."
...The same with gum. A player who is comfortable with chew with ease and probably not pay a lot of attention to it. But if they're bluffing at a pot, they might notice that their chewing could bring attention to themselves and will stop. This a good tell to look for when you're playing. Most people chew gum at the same constant pace. If they suddenly stop chewing, it's possible they're bluffing at a hand and don't want to draw attention to themselves. If they start chewing deliberately slower than normal, it could be because they have a very strong hand and they're trying to tone down the excitement they feel.
-Don't be a table pro. I hate playing live games and there is somewhere there to throw out statistics, odds, numbers, etc. They're also the ones who tend to berate another player's mistakes.
-Wearing a No Limit Texas Hold 'Em shirt with a skull in a cowboy hat, smoking a cigar and holding A8 suited in it's bony hands with your wrap-around rayban sunglasses and your death stare doesn't make you a good/look like a good player. You just look like a douche...and you probably play like one, too.
-While your goal is to take money from other players, it doesn't hurt to be friendly. I like to have a friendly, talkative, just-here-to-have-fun image while keeping my goals in mind. If you're the table jerk, you're going to have a lot of people gunning for you. Also, by talking to other people about general stuff, you can get an idea if they're playing for fun or if they take the game a bit more seriously.
-Bring gum. This is one of my favorite tricks. Having something to share with the table is a very nice gesture when trying to promote a nice, friendly image. After, I've established a friendly image, I like to pull out a pack of gum (preferably one that last a long time) take one, and then offer it to the table. If I'm lucky, I'll get quite a few people accepting because who doesn't like gum?
Chewing gum is natural, just like breathing. You just do it automatically when if pop it in your mouth and you'll continue chewing as long as it remains in your mouth. When it comes to poker, if a player is bluffing, they usually tend to try and not do anything that'll get them noticed. And the things we do subconsciously, we become a bit more conscious about. For example: breathing. We don't think about inhaling and exhaling, we just do it...but if we're trying to bluff at a big pot, we might become fully aware of our breathing pattern and might think..."let me hold my breath so they won't notice I'm breathing hard."
...The same with gum. A player who is comfortable with chew with ease and probably not pay a lot of attention to it. But if they're bluffing at a pot, they might notice that their chewing could bring attention to themselves and will stop. This a good tell to look for when you're playing. Most people chew gum at the same constant pace. If they suddenly stop chewing, it's possible they're bluffing at a hand and don't want to draw attention to themselves. If they start chewing deliberately slower than normal, it could be because they have a very strong hand and they're trying to tone down the excitement they feel.
Nexus6
Rock Star
Silver Level
I talked to Martin campbell (directore of casino royal) he said he would love to put your gum idea in his movie lol...
Rldetheflop
Head Ranger
Silver Level
well i dont like #7 I have only played live once but I never spoke a word the whole time I was at the table. I didnt want the tone of my voice giving anything away. Of course if your not verbalizing you need to understand how to bet. not string betting and such. I always made sure i had the exact amount stacked to the side of my stack before moving anything foward.
also I asked before hand about calling without exact change and the dealer told me that if i wanted to limp for 2 dollars but only had a 5 to just put the 5 in without saying raise and its assumed a call and he would refund the change. The situation never came up but i guess if I wanted to raise to 5 I would have had to say something I always just raised to 6 lol...
also I asked before hand about calling without exact change and the dealer told me that if i wanted to limp for 2 dollars but only had a 5 to just put the 5 in without saying raise and its assumed a call and he would refund the change. The situation never came up but i guess if I wanted to raise to 5 I would have had to say something I always just raised to 6 lol...
P
ph_il
...
Silver Level
arahel_jazz
Unbalanced and Committed
Silver Level
MrPokerVerse
Legend
Bronze Level
Adding T-Shirt to Craigslist any giving away my sun glasses.
Very good tip with the gum. Also just the jesture of asking will show a relaxed demeanor with some natural mannerism, once deviated from can produce a tell.
Like to always talk to people before the tournament starts an just observre them before they put there get there "game face on."
Nexus6
Rock Star
Silver Level
even your replies are safe proof
Is that how you play poker to ?? Anyway Yes I did talk to him and he told me, "I believe the gum idea is a
great one Although I would set this only in some outback indian casino , Say
in washington state , Montana Other wise if you tried that where you and I play in Los angeles county they would laugh us off the table .
I'll update you if he mentions it again.
clubsta
Rock Star
Silver Level
Nice thread--it was a good read. I pretty much follow almost every guideline here, though I've come to start following #5 (looking at cards only when it's your turn) only recently in the past year or so. At first I didn't want to because I didn't want to slow down the game and I didn't want everyone's attention on me while I looked at my cards, but then I learned that the pro's far outweigh the con's, at least in my case. I think GrossBerger gave some of the best reasons as to why you should follow that rule.
Grossberger
Cardschat Elite
Silver Level
The thing to remembeer is its easy to give away information while playing live and you may not even realise your doing it. For instance I've caught myself covering my mouth when I bluff and not cover it when I have a big hand so now I coverr my mouth any time I'm in the hand. you have so much other things you are thinking about its hard to do the same thing each time your in the hand.
Grossberger
Cardschat Elite
Silver Level
Ok I knew there was another important point to add and just remembered it.
6. Don't muck until dealer awards you the pot- If you are in a hand say on the river and you bet out and player folds don't muck your cards til the dealer pushes the pot towards you. Why is this important??? Well I was dealing a charity tournament and a idiot player that was making huge bets into a small pot and just being a total idiot made a huge bet into a small pot (4000 into a 500 pot) and a player had mucked so he threw his cards into the muck and went to scoop up his chips and I said wait theres another player still in the hand. He didn't see another player still had cards and the player said he was going to call. now I knew what the ruling should be but I called the floor over explained what happened and the guy that still had cards was awarded the pot because I had mixed the big bet guys cards into the deck. So hold on to your cards until the pot is awarded to you the reason is if another player that might have cards sees the pot going to someone will say wait I still have cards and you haven't lost your ability to win the part if you have the winning hand.
6. Don't muck until dealer awards you the pot- If you are in a hand say on the river and you bet out and player folds don't muck your cards til the dealer pushes the pot towards you. Why is this important??? Well I was dealing a charity tournament and a idiot player that was making huge bets into a small pot and just being a total idiot made a huge bet into a small pot (4000 into a 500 pot) and a player had mucked so he threw his cards into the muck and went to scoop up his chips and I said wait theres another player still in the hand. He didn't see another player still had cards and the player said he was going to call. now I knew what the ruling should be but I called the floor over explained what happened and the guy that still had cards was awarded the pot because I had mixed the big bet guys cards into the deck. So hold on to your cards until the pot is awarded to you the reason is if another player that might have cards sees the pot going to someone will say wait I still have cards and you haven't lost your ability to win the part if you have the winning hand.
Weregoat
Visionary
Silver Level
You missed a few, GB. For instance, familiarize yourself with the house rules. For instance, at Hawaiian Gardens casino in Hawaiian Gardens, CA, everything that goes over the line when you bet or raise is part of your bet or raise, but at the Bicycle in Bell Gardens, only what you leave over the line (for instance you take a stack of 20 chips and leave 15, at HG you must bet the 20 chips, at the bike you can leave the 15).
A good rule of thumb I like is this: "Don't give poker lessons at the table." When you've played as much live poker as I have, read books about it, discussed it, etc, you put in the time as risked the money, there is no reason to give the fruits of your efforts away to other people at the table.
Sometimes I'll try to steal from the cutoff with 67o in an unopened pot, flop the nut straight on a board of 3d4c5d (dripping wet), and bet to protect my made hand. When I call an all-in jam on the turn and my whole cards are exposed, I'm not going to argue that I'm not lucky, raising with weak holdings, or explain why I bet the flop, because if my opponents can't reckognize a steal attempt, protecting myself from a flush draw, or analyze how other players are playing hands, I certainly want to use that to my advantage.
When I have pocket 4's and make a hero call on an opponent I peg for a missed flush draw on his gigantic river bet, I don't want my opponents to know why I made the play I made, I just want them to know I'm capable of making it. So when neighbor on my right says "Did you call him because his hands were shaking?" And the answer is "I called him because he snap-called my flop raise, was shocked when I checked the turn, despite being given outs were I behind, then he stacked his chips up into a single tower when he ussually lays them out in stacks of five," they get the answer "I knew he didn't have a King."
A good rule of thumb I like is this: "Don't give poker lessons at the table." When you've played as much live poker as I have, read books about it, discussed it, etc, you put in the time as risked the money, there is no reason to give the fruits of your efforts away to other people at the table.
Sometimes I'll try to steal from the cutoff with 67o in an unopened pot, flop the nut straight on a board of 3d4c5d (dripping wet), and bet to protect my made hand. When I call an all-in jam on the turn and my whole cards are exposed, I'm not going to argue that I'm not lucky, raising with weak holdings, or explain why I bet the flop, because if my opponents can't reckognize a steal attempt, protecting myself from a flush draw, or analyze how other players are playing hands, I certainly want to use that to my advantage.
When I have pocket 4's and make a hero call on an opponent I peg for a missed flush draw on his gigantic river bet, I don't want my opponents to know why I made the play I made, I just want them to know I'm capable of making it. So when neighbor on my right says "Did you call him because his hands were shaking?" And the answer is "I called him because he snap-called my flop raise, was shocked when I checked the turn, despite being given outs were I behind, then he stacked his chips up into a single tower when he ussually lays them out in stacks of five," they get the answer "I knew he didn't have a King."
white_lytning
Rock Star
Silver Level
+1 to Tenbob's post about rule 5. Way over used and very annoying.
Nothing is more annoying live than wasting the other 9 peoples time at the table, no matter how you do it. We are there to see hands, and the 10 seconds it takes you to put on your little show when you look at your cards adds up. At a low limit cash game you look like a douche.
Nothing is more annoying live than wasting the other 9 peoples time at the table, no matter how you do it. We are there to see hands, and the 10 seconds it takes you to put on your little show when you look at your cards adds up. At a low limit cash game you look like a douche.
OzExorcist
Broomcorn's uncle
Bronze Level
*walks in late*
Yeah, #5 can go both ways. What you actually need to work on is concealing your tells and paying attention to what the other players at the table are doing, regardless of what you're holding.
While waiting until it's your turn to act has some benefits in that you can't give off tells about the strength of a hand you haven't seen yet and you'll be more inclined to pay attention to the other players when you don't know what you're going to do yet, it also has some disadvantages. Primarily, it means everyone will be looking at you looking at your cards and as TB pointed out, that's not necessarily a good thing - especially if you're not good at concealing your tells. Plus it can turn you into the player that always holds up the action and that's never a popular title to hold. Remember that it's in your interests, as well as everybody else's, to see as many hands an hour as possible so you don't want to hold the game up unnecessarily.
One other thought too, people have said that you shouldn't look until it's your turn because that's what the pros all do. That couldn't be further from the truth. There are a lot of pros that look at their hand before it's their turn, and there are quite a few that sometimes don't even wait for their second card to arrive before they start looking. Phil Ivey is one of them, FWIW. I think that goes back to my original point - these are players that are confident in their ability to conceal their tells and pay attention to the other players regardless of what's in their own hand. Get good at that and the point you choose to look at your cards will matter a lot less.
Yeah, #5 can go both ways. What you actually need to work on is concealing your tells and paying attention to what the other players at the table are doing, regardless of what you're holding.
While waiting until it's your turn to act has some benefits in that you can't give off tells about the strength of a hand you haven't seen yet and you'll be more inclined to pay attention to the other players when you don't know what you're going to do yet, it also has some disadvantages. Primarily, it means everyone will be looking at you looking at your cards and as TB pointed out, that's not necessarily a good thing - especially if you're not good at concealing your tells. Plus it can turn you into the player that always holds up the action and that's never a popular title to hold. Remember that it's in your interests, as well as everybody else's, to see as many hands an hour as possible so you don't want to hold the game up unnecessarily.
One other thought too, people have said that you shouldn't look until it's your turn because that's what the pros all do. That couldn't be further from the truth. There are a lot of pros that look at their hand before it's their turn, and there are quite a few that sometimes don't even wait for their second card to arrive before they start looking. Phil Ivey is one of them, FWIW. I think that goes back to my original point - these are players that are confident in their ability to conceal their tells and pay attention to the other players regardless of what's in their own hand. Get good at that and the point you choose to look at your cards will matter a lot less.
thepokerkid123
Visionary
Silver Level
I think 5 is the opposite, people waiting their turn to look at their hand are almost certainly fish.
Looking early speeds up the game, more hands/hour is in your best interest.
There are fewer people looking at you when it's not your turn.
You shouldn't be giving off reliable tells anyway (there will always be something so give off some misinformation too, just don't be an idiot).
Looking early speeds up the game, more hands/hour is in your best interest.
There are fewer people looking at you when it's not your turn.
You shouldn't be giving off reliable tells anyway (there will always be something so give off some misinformation too, just don't be an idiot).
Worak
Legend
Bronze Level
Lmao there the chips that went south went.
To the op:
#x Don't go south with anyones chips.
Weregoat
Visionary
Silver Level
I disagree.
If you aren't looking at your cards as you wait for the action, and aren't an idiot, you are paying attention to the action at the table. Whether or not you can pick up tells (I doubt it, but is villain specific) or not, at least you'll know where you're at in the hand once you do look at your whole cards.
And usually you'll have an idea about what you want to do before you peak.
Oh, the pot's been 3-bet and I'm in the hijack. I'm going to need a big hand to continue.
QTo. Okay, cost the table a few seconds.
In online, we want to get as many hands per hour because the number of hands we play are so much higher (4 tabling 100 hands per hour vs one tabling 25-30 hands per hour, you're playing 1/16th the amount of hands we play online). Given that people play 1/16th the hands an hour of a four-tabling online player, they don't have as much experience as the average online player, so may take more time to process information and make decisions.
Us taking an extra two seconds to look at our hole cards once it's our turn, isn't going to put a dent in our hands per hour. It may reduce it by less than three.
A find that a lot of my winnings from a live game come not from hands per hour, but from cleverly and correctly playing my hands, and taking a little extra time to do so won't give me the 8BB/100 that I'd want in an online session, but I wouldn't be playing poker if I wanted to make $24 every three to four hours, I'd be working at McDonald's (or stay in the Army. At least they give me a house and food).
My two cents.
Zorba
27
Platinum Level
Chewing gum makes my dentures stick together which is not a good look.
thepokerkid123
Visionary
Silver Level
It's worth giving up quite literally 2 seconds to look at your cards. You still have plenty of time to watch everyone else check their cards.
When you're playing 30 hands an hour, one more hand is worth much more than one extra hand if you're playing 400 hands per hour.
W
wntrlnd
Rising Star
Bronze Level
great thread. i'm heading to Vegas this week to play some poker. i appreciate the insight.
here's one that i've made money with in the past:
#11: If your opponents are drinking alcohol, don't forget to over-GENEROUSLY tip the cocktail waitress when she brings you your coca cola. You want her to be particularly motivated to get back to your table with your opponent's double whatever as fast as she can to collect another tip.
here's one that i've made money with in the past:
#11: If your opponents are drinking alcohol, don't forget to over-GENEROUSLY tip the cocktail waitress when she brings you your coca cola. You want her to be particularly motivated to get back to your table with your opponent's double whatever as fast as she can to collect another tip.
Weregoat
Visionary
Silver Level
So you're saying is the advantage is you gain about two seconds and then a little more time to think about your action, right? Well you still don't know what the action is going to be until it gets to you.
I've had somebody tell me my exact hand before, prior to my first action. Granted it was towards the end of my 36 hour live session without breaks, and I was quite fatigued and had about 20 hours with this guy.
That definitely cost me some money, and I'd be more worried about that than hands per hour.
I still wait. All my decisions are made quickly enough except in larger pots where the decisions can be a stack maker or breaker, it's not going to influence hands per hour greatly.