zachvac
Legend
Silver Level
Also seems as if most people you guys assume are internet players are simply recreational college kids. The average live player is probably better than the average college kid who will play in a casino. They've watched it on ESPN, think "it can't be that hard", want to look cool, and go in and play. Obviously I don't know, haven't played in a casino yet, but that's the sound of it from these responses. No good online multi-tabler would take minutes to make trivial decisions considering they have to make multiple tough decisions in the span of seconds online.
Sounds mostly like live players suffer from elitism and have a need to prove they are better than online players and prove that online isn't real poker. And lol at 1/2 live players talking about being good and acting like they're so much better than anyone. They're mostly playing tourists no? If they're playing 5/10+ maybe I could give them some respect, but when you're riding the lowest limits available I'd have to laugh at anyone making fun of a player and acting like this table was out of his league.
Sounds mostly like live players suffer from elitism and have a need to prove they are better than online players and prove that online isn't real poker. And lol at 1/2 live players talking about being good and acting like they're so much better than anyone. They're mostly playing tourists no? If they're playing 5/10+ maybe I could give them some respect, but when you're riding the lowest limits available I'd have to laugh at anyone making fun of a player and acting like this table was out of his league.
zachvac
Legend
Silver Level
What's wrong with #2?
aliengenius
Cardschat Elite
Silver Level
This^^. In my experience $1/$2nl live plays worse that 0.01/0.02nl online.
CAPT. ZIGZAG
Legend
Silver Level
If you're going to be a NIT live, you need to call, not raise, till they're pot locked.
That was prolly me...
Right. To some it's the smell of money.
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icemonkey9
Cardschat Elite
Silver Level
I have said and always will say $1/$2nl live is the biggest donkfest ever. But this was a $2/$5 table and you will get regs in Vegas or out here in LA at this level that are good solid players. At 1/2 people fricking FLUSHMINE. Nonsensical stupidity.
And I think Zach has taken the role of defending the internet college kid. Hmmmmmm I wonder why lol
Don't worry I agree with the fact that your average internet regular will destroy the average live guy in the long run.
And I think Zach has taken the role of defending the internet college kid. Hmmmmmm I wonder why lol
Don't worry I agree with the fact that your average internet regular will destroy the average live guy in the long run.
zachvac
Legend
Silver Level
Right. To some it's the smell of money.
---
No, read it again, that was #1. #2 was wearing a hat. What's wrong with wearing a hat at the table?
white_lytning
Rock Star
Silver Level
Zack, I almost feel like your attacking my original post.
I'll repeat it just to make sure its clear. I didn't make this post to attack internet college kids. Thats where a lot of people start, and its natural for someone without a lot of table experience to be out of their element. Just as a live player would be out of their element on the internet.
online poker is very different from live games. More people need to accept this, and be aware of it in topics when we are making comparisons about the two. Also, this was a 2/5 game, not a 1/2. There is a very big difference between the two games in most casino's. (On a side note...The Borgota seems to have a pretty loose 2/5 usually).
And Zack, one of the biggest things that separates cash game players is their game selection. In live games it easy to see who the tourists are and it would be dumb not to want to play with. When I walk into the card room I look for 2/5s with people I don't recognize because thats usually a good sign. Its not as profitable to sit and raise blinds with the regular grinders. It would be a bad play to pick that game over one full of tourists. Don't attack live games for being full of tourists and tell me that I'm an elitist for playing them. Anyone that chooses to play in the harder game is the one that should be made fun of.
I'll repeat it just to make sure its clear. I didn't make this post to attack internet college kids. Thats where a lot of people start, and its natural for someone without a lot of table experience to be out of their element. Just as a live player would be out of their element on the internet.
online poker is very different from live games. More people need to accept this, and be aware of it in topics when we are making comparisons about the two. Also, this was a 2/5 game, not a 1/2. There is a very big difference between the two games in most casino's. (On a side note...The Borgota seems to have a pretty loose 2/5 usually).
And Zack, one of the biggest things that separates cash game players is their game selection. In live games it easy to see who the tourists are and it would be dumb not to want to play with. When I walk into the card room I look for 2/5s with people I don't recognize because thats usually a good sign. Its not as profitable to sit and raise blinds with the regular grinders. It would be a bad play to pick that game over one full of tourists. Don't attack live games for being full of tourists and tell me that I'm an elitist for playing them. Anyone that chooses to play in the harder game is the one that should be made fun of.
zachvac
Legend
Silver Level
Sorry, wasn't attacking anyone, but if I were, it was people like Double-A suggesting the subtle shots at the kid. That's what kinda pissed me off. If they're messing up and aren't experienced with live play, just let them know. It's common courtesy. Don't try to drop subtle hints to further embarrass them.
I'm also sorry about my characterization of live poker. I've never set foot inside a casino so have no idea how it is. I just know that every single person I've talked to that said they played live (most of which I knew and played online) have said it was the softest game they had ever played in. Now they're probably going over the weekends and playing 1/2, where the tourists are. I've just heard from people who say they've played both that 1/2 online is probably tougher than the 5/10 live games. That's all I'm going off of.
Also, not a huge deal, but it's Zach not Zack.
Also my posts weren't exactly geared at CC members either. It's geared at the live players who think they are the shit and that online players all suck at live poker. It's the same game and many of the online players are much better than the live players. That goes from people like Hellmuth looking down on Durrr to just a common perception among amateurs and grinders ("well you may be able to play behind your computer screen, but can you play with the big boys?"-like comments). Sorry if you felt I was ripping on you.
Double-A
Visionary
Silver Level
My comments weren't meant to take shots at or embarrass anyone.
If I felt like taking shots at an inexperienced player for not toking then I'd look at them and say, "Hey Dork, why aren't you tipping? Dealers have to make a living too you know!"
In my experience it's best not to comment or make suggestions about other players actions. That type of dialogue can often create a bad vibe at the table and that's just -EV. B&M games aren't all "happy go lucky" situations. Not everyone is there to have fun and play cards. Sure there will be games full of nice people enjoying a social game but just as often you're playing with drunks, addicts, people playing way over their head financially, or just total a$$holes.
Suggesting to another player, "usually it's a nice thing to tip the dealer after winning a pot like that" might be met with a response like "Oh, O.K. thanks" or it might be met with, "Usually it's a nice thing to mind your own f#@king business. This guys been dealing me crap all night!"
Asking the dealer if you missed toking him is common in live games. In that context few if any people are going to take a dialogue between the dealer and another player personally.
Monoxide
Cardschat Elite
Silver Level
I dont understand, these players just seem like bad players. Rule #1 in poker, especially live for someone with all this experience, is dont tap the glass. The guy lost $1000? Ok so hes obv some breed of fishlike tight player why would you harrass him? Just because it looks like they are internet players doesnt neccessarily mean they play well, he could think TPTK is good always. To me they would just be labelled bad until further notice.
The only thing I deem worthy of telling the player is to tip the dealer, id just tell him that after 2-3 times of not tipping and I saw. How they dont notice all others tipping as they are playing is beyond me. The fact they are slow in descision making only furthers the case that they were probably new, poker is sometimes a slow game you get used to it. If it was a really slow player purposely doing it you call the floor and get them to talk to the guy.
Serious though this is what is the most annoying to me, if you do this to me at the table you are my spite player. Sometimes I go card dead as soon as I sit down at a calling station table, then obv after maybe 30-45 mins+ ill see like AQ or QQ and raise and you always get that 1 player, or more occasionally, that will say "OH hes got a hand now!" "Wooww"(loudly) *look of shock on face*. Its so rigged and can kill action so bad, dont do this, some (smarter) people will know to fold anyway and im trying to get the fish you fool! I really want to be drinking one night and have someone do this to me it will be so sweet, go ultra-LAG against them.
Man really, your table is so retarded, so really everyone just agrees out loud to not play with these guys? If they are only playing big hands they are easy to read so why not exploit them, dont just cut them off so verbally like that. Im kind of shocked the dealer wouldnt say anything, lol.
summary: I just dont do any of this, you want to make the bad players feel welcome and stay to donate and dont berate the other tight solid players fish farming.
The only thing I deem worthy of telling the player is to tip the dealer, id just tell him that after 2-3 times of not tipping and I saw. How they dont notice all others tipping as they are playing is beyond me. The fact they are slow in descision making only furthers the case that they were probably new, poker is sometimes a slow game you get used to it. If it was a really slow player purposely doing it you call the floor and get them to talk to the guy.
Serious though this is what is the most annoying to me, if you do this to me at the table you are my spite player. Sometimes I go card dead as soon as I sit down at a calling station table, then obv after maybe 30-45 mins+ ill see like AQ or QQ and raise and you always get that 1 player, or more occasionally, that will say "OH hes got a hand now!" "Wooww"(loudly) *look of shock on face*. Its so rigged and can kill action so bad, dont do this, some (smarter) people will know to fold anyway and im trying to get the fish you fool! I really want to be drinking one night and have someone do this to me it will be so sweet, go ultra-LAG against them.
Man really, your table is so retarded, so really everyone just agrees out loud to not play with these guys? If they are only playing big hands they are easy to read so why not exploit them, dont just cut them off so verbally like that. Im kind of shocked the dealer wouldnt say anything, lol.
summary: I just dont do any of this, you want to make the bad players feel welcome and stay to donate and dont berate the other tight solid players fish farming.
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belladonna05
belladonkin'
Loyaler
Double A was right on the money. What would be embarrassing would be for someone to call you out on not tipping. I don't understand why being gently nudged in the right direction would anger you so. Then you go on to berate live players. We are all here to play poker, live or online, so why can't we just all get along.
zachvac
Legend
Silver Level
Well maybe it's just me, but I'd prefer to be told straight up what I'm messing up with, not given subtle hints I may or may not pick up on.
And I did NOT berate live players. I berated live players "who think they are the shit and that online players all suck at live poker".
belladonna05
belladonkin'
Loyaler
The quotes below tell a different story.
zachvac
Legend
Silver Level
The quotes below tell a different story.
That's not berating, it's a fact. I currently play 1/2 online. I'm going to go play probably some 1/2 live (idk if I'll try out 2/5, may be a bit nervous with money, definitely start with 1/2) at the East Coast meet-up. EVERY SINGLE PERSON I've talked to has said the live game will play similar to a 1c/2c game online and that I'd probably find the live 5/10 games easier than the online 1/2 games. That's why I say from what I understand online players in general are better. Not that every live player sucks, not that every online player is good, but overall ON AVERAGE (I believe that was the term I used), online players are better than live players at the corresponding level.
Debi
Forum Admin
Administrator
Zach you have nothing to worry about because the first time you play live I will be at the table with you and I got you covered! There are just a few things you might need to get used to - but you are lucky that you will have a few friends to help you out with those things.
It's really not a big deal at all - you will be comfortable after one game.
It's really not a big deal at all - you will be comfortable after one game.
zachvac
Legend
Silver Level
Thanks, I really am lucky
. I was just trying to add a little perspective to things here. Even though I'll have good friends to help me out, it's a lot to take in for the first time. Now imagine if instead of going with friends who are good at poker and knowledgable about playing I went with a friend who I just dragged along (I think icemonkey used that reference) or another friend who hadn't played in a casino before. I'm just saying that's probably how some of these kids feel. I have heard that dealers are usually nice and will help you out if you let them know it's your first time live, but I'm sure especially tipping is awkward. It's obvious not required, but pretty much common ettiquette to do it. Personally I have no idea how much is customary to tip. And although the dealer can help you out, I can imagine it'd be kinda awkward for him to suggest that the new player tip him. Just trying to get people to think about how other people are feeling. Remember the saying, before you criticize someone walk a mile in their shoes. Then you'll be a mile away, and you'll have their shoes (stole that from a forum sig, forget if it's this one or another one).
Steveg1976
...
Silver Level
Thanks, I really am lucky
The first time I ever played live was in Reno during the Brew Fest with everyone from Cardschat that came along. I didn't play a single hand for the first hour. Partly because I was card dead but also to get an idea of how everything at the table worked tipping how people handled their chips etc. That gave me more confidence later when I was involved in pots. just an idea. Also I got to see a lot about how everyone was playing and I trippled my buy in bye the end of the night
Double-A
Visionary
Silver Level
I'm just thinking out loud here...
A big difference between online and B&M play that I think is being over looked in this line of conversation is expected win rate.
A winning player who is making his nut 4tabling $100 NLHE is going to see his $/hour plummet when he steps into a card room. This doesn't have much to do with the quality of his competition but has a lot to do with table selection and hands per hour.
Might be a bad example but... Say you've got a winning player who 4tables 4/8 LHE. If he's making $32 per online he'll have to find a soft 15/30 game in Vegas to make the same amount per hour. Good luck...
On average though, a 1/2 NLHE game online is going to have better players than a B&M game at the same stakes.
kadafi
Rock Star
Silver Level
The reason online players are better is because they see more hands and have a lot more experience than your average fisrt time casino goer.
I think most people go to casinos willing to gamble at long shots aswell where as most people play online to make money. And the majority of online players will have read a lot of poker articles or books online aswell.
I think most people go to casinos willing to gamble at long shots aswell where as most people play online to make money. And the majority of online players will have read a lot of poker articles or books online aswell.
white_lytning
Rock Star
Silver Level
I have a problem with this argument. I played a lot of online poker in college, and was lucky enough to live close to a casino afterwords. I am a teacher, and do nothing but play cards in my free time. Summers, holidays, nights, I average about 4 days a week in the card room. I have a lot of table experience, and consider myself a decent live cash game player.
I hear this argument a lot, "internet guys see so many more hands so they have so much more experience". At a basic level it does make sense, you can play 4+ tables at a time seeing more hands at every table. The flaw in the argument is the way you comprehend the hands you see. You are only playing premium hands and only paying attention to the games in which you get one of these hands. An internet guy generally doesn't have to take in information when they have bad hands. They can just switch to another tab and click the check/fold button if they don't see something they like. They are playing their hand only, and nothing else.
Internet guys see a lot more hands, but they don't see how they play out. The pay less attention to the other players at the table because it much harder to keep track of 36 other people than it is 9; and are generally just waiting to see good cards dealt to them.
Its like the difference between two students. One skims 4 books about a topic and the other reads 1 of those books to a full understanding. Which one of these students has a better understanding of the material? From my experience, the one that read 4 may know (be aware of) more information, but understand (make use of the material) less.
I hear this argument a lot, "internet guys see so many more hands so they have so much more experience". At a basic level it does make sense, you can play 4+ tables at a time seeing more hands at every table. The flaw in the argument is the way you comprehend the hands you see. You are only playing premium hands and only paying attention to the games in which you get one of these hands. An internet guy generally doesn't have to take in information when they have bad hands. They can just switch to another tab and click the check/fold button if they don't see something they like. They are playing their hand only, and nothing else.
Internet guys see a lot more hands, but they don't see how they play out. The pay less attention to the other players at the table because it much harder to keep track of 36 other people than it is 9; and are generally just waiting to see good cards dealt to them.
Its like the difference between two students. One skims 4 books about a topic and the other reads 1 of those books to a full understanding. Which one of these students has a better understanding of the material? From my experience, the one that read 4 may know (be aware of) more information, but understand (make use of the material) less.
vanquish
Legend
Silver Level
This is not true. If you watch a world class internet player play, they don't do this. Especially not the ones who plays heads-up or 6max as their main game. They're just able to take in information that fast. It's not like when they're 6-tabling one person heads-up, they're only playing their good hands. They know what spots to find, and are able to find them quickly and more accurately than someone who plays a ton of live poker and is always focused on the exact hand he is playing. They also adjust to their opponent's game on the fly.
vanquish
Legend
Silver Level
What about heads-up cash games? Or 6max?