K
KickAssCesar
Rising Star
Bronze Level
Since you dont like your job you should go for it. Maybe it will work out maybe it wont but you wont know unless you try. You would probaly be cheap with the money at first i know i would be but if stuff gets rolling good well not so cheap then, and you have a fiance so she could help you out
sam1chips
Visionary
Silver Level
I agree with part of what your saying. A lot of the live players are really, really bad. I am one of those "young kids", and have only played 2 sessions of 1/2, but a lot of the play I've seen has been pretty poor.
My question is...when/how often do you play live? I've only played on Friday/Saturday nights. You run into a lot of "recreational players".. A lot of people that know the rules but don't quite know the strategies, who got the permission from the wife to go hang out at the casino for a couple hours.
I wonder what type of players are playing on Wednesday afternoon? I mean, if you're planning on playing 40-50 hours per week, I feel like you are playing against an extremely different demographic on Wednesday afternoon as opposed to Saturday night, and you might assume that your "expected win rate" would change if you aren't playing against a lot of the "recreational players" during a certain time.
Just a hypothesis. As for the OP, I agree with what everybody has said before Definitely keep a savings for only expenses. And I would suggest some sort of part-time job as well, even if its just 15-20 hours per week. (a guaranteed paycheck, as opposed to uncertain poker session result). I would also try to align the PT job with a time where it isn't as profitable to be playing poker (ie, not a waiter, friday and saturday nights are juicy at the 1/2 table!)
Another note: I would run this by the fiance before you even think about doing it.
Beanfacekilla
Legend
Silver Level
I play as often as 5 times a week. Sometimes I take a break after run bad.
I have an App for my phone for tracking my poker sessions. I start it when I sit down, pause it when I leave the the table for a break, and stop it when session is over. I enter in my buy-in, and check out amounts. It is very helpful.
I actually do worse on Fridays and Saturdays than any other day. I always get coolered on those days for some reason, to spite the horrific play I encounter on those days.
Weekdays are better for me. The players may be better, but for the most part they are still bad. Everyone knows how to play, but they don't play well. It is just bingo every hand. People don't bluff all that often, but for some reason everyone always thinks everyone else is bluffing....
I only encounter about 2-3 players (10 seat table) at any given time that are as good or better than I am. I am not even that good. But I have experience, and I am a solid hand reader (at least most of the time).
To summarize my drawn out post:
Most players I encounter are bad players at live $1/$2. They play way too many hands, they continue too far post-flop with weak draws, and they make dumb calls on the river when they think their top pair no kicker is still good.
However, "occasionally the lamb slaughters the butcher", when these total dumb asses go on a heater. Anyone can win if they crush every flop with garbage hands.
The majority of the players sitting at live low stakes cash games will be bad. Really bad. Any day of the week. The weekends especially.
Mr Sandbag
Legend
Silver Level
I've been playing a lot of $1/$2 live lately and have the same questions the OP has.
I agree with Beanface, though. There are players in the poker room everyday that are bad. In fact, I'd venture to say that a good portion of the regulars are gambling addicts based on their wild play and constant need to chase. For this reason, it is a different game than online. You may see less hands per hour, but so does everyone else. And when a bad player hasn't seen a decent hand in 40 minutes, instead of sitting tight and staying disciplined, he makes bad bets/calls and spews chips. There are usually only 1 or 2 other players at the table that are solid enough to recognize simple tells, like the guy sitting on the small blind is suddenly 3-betting preflop after not speaking, calling, or raising for the past 3 1/2 hours (hmm, I wonder what he's got!).
While I haven't played enough hands yet in these live games to determine whether or not my winrate is sustainable, I do believe a solid player can make $20k-$30k per year because of the poor standard of play. It may not be enough to convince somebody to quit a $40k/year job, but if you really want to play poker for a living, your ultimate goal should be to move up to at least $2/$5. Maybe look at it as the $1/$2 stakes is the "entry level job" and you can get "promoted" to higher stakes and better pay.
B
bnkexpress
Rising Star
Bronze Level
hellmuth, I would not stop working! forget that, not a good idea! why? cause you WILL be broke one day and then you'll have to look desperatly for work. (not an option).
Here's what I do. I work 38h/week, so only weekends left for playing hardstyle.
In the week you can start exercising on pokerstars. As I read from your question, I don't think you're ready to make it already at the 1/2 blinds especcially not when you will have to put your bankroll at risk for living.
Try to build a bankroll on pokerstars (wich is really hard) I recommend to deposit min 100$ a month on pokerstars and play tournaments. In tournaments you will make a lot of mistakes wich you can evaluate after the game without losing money you can't afford.
If you think you're really ready?
go on friday or saturday (only 1 day) to casino. Start with regular freeze-outs and when you cash there you can try your shot with a small piece of your winnings at the cashtables for an hour or 2 maybe 3 (but trust me after a freeze-out you'ld better walk home if you win something)
When you see you can handle the players there at your local casino and you have a read on several guys, cause at a casino you will see the same people over and over most of the time then you can start your journey on the fulltime (friday or saturday, leave the freeze-outs for what they are) 1/2$ stakes.
On sunday you evaluate your game of the week by using pokeroffice, holdem genius or whatever there is on the market that is recommended. ( I prefer pokeroffice)
And from there on you will see that your game has a lot of improvement and then you can start investing online tournaments if you like, or just go for bigger cashgame at the local casino...I don't like to play cashgame online, but that's my opinion.
==> reason: pyramid system...a lot of players have huge bankrolls wich just will crush yours!...
Im playing 2/4 cashgame live now, difficult and a lot of aggressive players.
So unless you are confident about your game and you think you can handle it, I would just start like I said ^.
Here's what I do. I work 38h/week, so only weekends left for playing hardstyle.
In the week you can start exercising on pokerstars. As I read from your question, I don't think you're ready to make it already at the 1/2 blinds especcially not when you will have to put your bankroll at risk for living.
Try to build a bankroll on pokerstars (wich is really hard) I recommend to deposit min 100$ a month on pokerstars and play tournaments. In tournaments you will make a lot of mistakes wich you can evaluate after the game without losing money you can't afford.
If you think you're really ready?
go on friday or saturday (only 1 day) to casino. Start with regular freeze-outs and when you cash there you can try your shot with a small piece of your winnings at the cashtables for an hour or 2 maybe 3 (but trust me after a freeze-out you'ld better walk home if you win something)
When you see you can handle the players there at your local casino and you have a read on several guys, cause at a casino you will see the same people over and over most of the time then you can start your journey on the fulltime (friday or saturday, leave the freeze-outs for what they are) 1/2$ stakes.
On sunday you evaluate your game of the week by using pokeroffice, holdem genius or whatever there is on the market that is recommended. ( I prefer pokeroffice)
And from there on you will see that your game has a lot of improvement and then you can start investing online tournaments if you like, or just go for bigger cashgame at the local casino...I don't like to play cashgame online, but that's my opinion.
==> reason: pyramid system...a lot of players have huge bankrolls wich just will crush yours!...
Im playing 2/4 cashgame live now, difficult and a lot of aggressive players.
So unless you are confident about your game and you think you can handle it, I would just start like I said ^.
B
bnkexpress
Rising Star
Bronze Level
yep true, live players are really bad..of a full-ring only 1 decent player, and 1 average player...all the rest peoples that are bored and try to see every flop...
don't be shocked when you raise to 4 or 6 $ you get a huge reraise of 30-40$ from a guy that plays 64/65/76/78 suite, .standard issues in live.very bad players but you still need a savings bankroll to risk this ..2$/5$ is not an option for you mate...not yet! with all respect..just being honnest, cause if you were a good enough player your question would be not 1/2 but 4/8 oev+r 5/10 maybe higher...cause rake will kill your EV+ at 1/2$ even at 2/5 it will be gambling most of the time when you're at the tables, cause even whey you get monster like AA, 90% of the time ALLIN is the only good play you can do..and they'll call you with whatever what is decent...ok you have AA..but that's only 1 pair
Hellmuth iz the Greatest
Rising Star
Bronze Level
Thanks for all the replies! BUT, why would someone even bring up 5-10 NL from what i posted. Someone said you need to play at least at 5-10 to make a living. I strongly disagree w/ this... If i played 5-10 comfortably w/ the correct br id be living the high life, not my goal though.
Hellmuth iz the Greatest
Rising Star
Bronze Level
I DO NOT PLAY ONLINE, ONLY LIVE
Hellmuth iz the Greatest
Rising Star
Bronze Level
Playing poker is more old and boring than working a shit job? You just dont love the game enough...
D
detourglr
Rock Star
Silver Level
myself I wouldnt quit your job.. you have to have an emergency fund like a year wages and this not counting your poker bankroll.
myself I would be the weekend poker player and have the comforts of having a full time job.
myself I would be the weekend poker player and have the comforts of having a full time job.
Mr Sandbag
Legend
Silver Level
Amazing how many people here would just put up with a miserable job 50 hours/week because it brings in an average wage.
That doesn't mean you should quit, but if you have put yourself in a position financially where a downswing in your bankroll won't affect your ability to pay your bills on time, then go for it if you really want it. Like you, I'd rather make less money doing something that I love and isn't a "job" than make more money but with 50 hours of misery each week.
That doesn't mean you should quit, but if you have put yourself in a position financially where a downswing in your bankroll won't affect your ability to pay your bills on time, then go for it if you really want it. Like you, I'd rather make less money doing something that I love and isn't a "job" than make more money but with 50 hours of misery each week.
sam1chips
Visionary
Silver Level
That's kinda not fair to say. You may like playing poker now as a hobby. If you are playing poker 40+ hours a week, and you are playing with the stress of having poker be your main (or only) source of income, then your attitude towards the game might change than what it currently is now.
As you suggest in your original post, "Bottom line is i have a long term goal to just never work again...", but if you are going to be playing live poker for 40+ hours a week, it may become sort of like a job, and may carry along the stress and other negative traits that a "job" tend to carry
R
RickAversion
Visionary
Silver Level
Read this killer post
https://www.cardschat.com/forum/com...een-told-i-cant-play-229038/post-2169729.html
https://www.cardschat.com/forum/com...een-told-i-cant-play-229038/post-2169729.html
PoKeRFoRNiA
Legend
Bronze Level
It honestly depends on what you average bb/100(big blinds per 100 hands) is. And then calculate it for yourself. If you make average of 5bb/100hands, then that's profit of $10 every 100 hands. Is that really worth quitting your job? You won't be able to make $1/$2 a living. I barely played $1/$2 to have a great run and use the winnings to pay for my trip and expenses to Korea. Other than that, to make it a job, not possible. I currently have two jobs, one as a math teacher and other as professional math/chem tutor. I am close to making 6 figure income, it's not worth giving up your job for low stakes poker. You should treat poker as a hobby outside of your work but never as a replacement unless you realize for sure that you can make poker your steady income.
However, to good poker players, it can be a good replacement over minimum wage jobs.
With jobs, you don't risk money. You're only risking time and labor/work. With poker, you risk time, labor/work, and money. So you have to ask, if you're making equivalent to your current job, is it really worth it?
Majority of professional poker players nowadays started off their poker career as a hobby, which turned into a job after they realized that they can make WAY more than their job. Chris Moneymaker was an accountant who played poker for hobby, playing satellites and low stakes, which he won a seat to wsop through satellite and eventually went on to win the whole thing. Once he became multi-millionaire, he quitted his job. Millions of professional poker players did this as well. Only ones who don't have jobs but became millionaires nowadays are people who started off online using freerolls or small deposit, and work their way up, such as Obrestad and Dwan.
However, to good poker players, it can be a good replacement over minimum wage jobs.
With jobs, you don't risk money. You're only risking time and labor/work. With poker, you risk time, labor/work, and money. So you have to ask, if you're making equivalent to your current job, is it really worth it?
Majority of professional poker players nowadays started off their poker career as a hobby, which turned into a job after they realized that they can make WAY more than their job. Chris Moneymaker was an accountant who played poker for hobby, playing satellites and low stakes, which he won a seat to wsop through satellite and eventually went on to win the whole thing. Once he became multi-millionaire, he quitted his job. Millions of professional poker players did this as well. Only ones who don't have jobs but became millionaires nowadays are people who started off online using freerolls or small deposit, and work their way up, such as Obrestad and Dwan.
PoKeRFoRNiA
Legend
Bronze Level
Yep. That's definitely true. Because if you're playing poker full time and quit the job, then the stress that the player is currently facing from bad beats and downswings while having a job, will multiply when he faces those same stuff without a job. This is because he'll be dependent on those wins and downswing while facing bills is the worst thing that can happen to players who play poker full time.
PoKeRFoRNiA
Legend
Bronze Level
I should consider making some kind of equation of job vs poker where you input your income and bb/100 and then it shows what stake they're allowed to play in, and if it's worth it. I dunno if anyone has done that in history of poker but it'll be a good way for people to calculate and see if the stake they're playing is worth giving up their job.
Mr Sandbag
Legend
Silver Level
Wouldn't work. It won't take into account real life situations. A man with a wife and kids wouldn't be able to handle making minimum wage from poker, but a single, young guy may be happy to put up with minimum wage income for awhile if it means doing what he loves.
rifflemao
Pugs Not Drugs
Silver Level
Regarding health insurance, you can check out Obamacare if the site ever gets fixed, or maybe get on your fiance's plan.
Actually, the fiance part is what concerns me. What does your future wife think about your idea? Women tend to like security, and having a poker playing husband could eventually become too much of a gamble for her.
Ideally she loves poker so much that she wants to play too, and you get married and live happily ever after like Doc Sands and Erika Moutinho.
Carl Trooper
Degenerate Idiot
Silver Level
If you are receiving good benefits at your job... I would probably not leave.
I work for the state and make around what you make, but I have excellent benefits and would not leave because of that alone.
I would recommend trying to find a different job that you semi-like or can tolerate, and play cash games on the weeknights/ weekends.
Try doing that for a year, see how you do and then make a decision.
Also, lets say you do decide to quit and play poker. Keep in mind you will have a big gap on your resume which employers DO NOT like.
I work for the state and make around what you make, but I have excellent benefits and would not leave because of that alone.
I would recommend trying to find a different job that you semi-like or can tolerate, and play cash games on the weeknights/ weekends.
Try doing that for a year, see how you do and then make a decision.
Also, lets say you do decide to quit and play poker. Keep in mind you will have a big gap on your resume which employers DO NOT like.
The1AceJack
Enthusiast
Silver Level
Two things:
Regardless of weather or not you want to play online, I think it's a good idea to play TONS (upward of 100k) hands of poker online for practicing the basics.
I live in Las Vegas and I'm purposely delaying my first live MTTs until I know my strategies like the back of my hand.
On a totally separate note, should you leave your job and pursue your dream? My answer to this is always yes.
Talking playing poker for a living, being a pro wrestler, or a Hollywood director -- if you want it bad enough; I say, disregard the what if's and chase it down.
Yes, have a good bankroll and life roll, and KNOW that you are a solid player before making this your career... but I wouldn't let doubt/fear stop you from doing it.
I've been chasing dreams / free-lancing since I went to school for filmmaking 9 years ago... from the highs of traveling cross country and making $500/day to the lows of crashing on my friends floor and shopping from groceries at the dollar store... and no matter where I land, I (mostly) love the journey.
BUT, let me underscore all of this with an infinitely important factor -- passion.
If you don't love what you're doing -- the thing that encompasses your job / your dream / your life -- then you shouldn't be doing it (IMO.)
/hopefullyhelpfulrant
Regardless of weather or not you want to play online, I think it's a good idea to play TONS (upward of 100k) hands of poker online for practicing the basics.
I live in Las Vegas and I'm purposely delaying my first live MTTs until I know my strategies like the back of my hand.
On a totally separate note, should you leave your job and pursue your dream? My answer to this is always yes.
Talking playing poker for a living, being a pro wrestler, or a Hollywood director -- if you want it bad enough; I say, disregard the what if's and chase it down.
Yes, have a good bankroll and life roll, and KNOW that you are a solid player before making this your career... but I wouldn't let doubt/fear stop you from doing it.
I've been chasing dreams / free-lancing since I went to school for filmmaking 9 years ago... from the highs of traveling cross country and making $500/day to the lows of crashing on my friends floor and shopping from groceries at the dollar store... and no matter where I land, I (mostly) love the journey.
BUT, let me underscore all of this with an infinitely important factor -- passion.
If you don't love what you're doing -- the thing that encompasses your job / your dream / your life -- then you shouldn't be doing it (IMO.)
/hopefullyhelpfulrant