Hastings vs. Isildur1 Cheating?

[Marginal]

So your stance is that if you don't like a rule that you agreed to, then you're within your rights to simply ignore it and violate it? So all the idiots that multi-account are okay with you? I'll assume you don't mind collusion either then since I'm sure there are some people out there that would like to work together and choose to ignore the rule about collusion because they don't like that one.

LOL I love how you completely misunderstood what I said, I said the rule was ridiculous but obviously I'm going to abide by it. Now colluding is a totally different offense that is actually cheating in my book and multi accounting without the intension of playing multiple accounts in the same game is cheating but multi-accounting to stay anonymous is not. Patrik Antonius, David Benyamine have both had a ton of accounts on ftp yet they were allowed to do so why was that any different?

 

[nevadanick]

Full Tilt terms:

(in part)... “Shared hand history databases and “data mining” software, ..(snipped).......... Violating this policy is subject to the maximum penalties for prohibited software use.

Latest installment from Brian Townsends blog:


I wanted to clear up some allegations about Brian Hastings, Cole South and myself. First Brian H. Cole S and myself never colluded. Collusion is nearly impossible HU but there was always one person playing and never any ghosting occurring. In fact the only person to break the T&C of FullTilt Poker was myself. I had about 20k hands of play on Isildur and I acquired another 30k hands. This is against the T&C of FullTilt Poker and because of this violation I am going to have my red pro status suspended for one month.

In the light of day....

the Judge (FTP) says: Violating this policy is subject to the maximum penalties for prohibited software use.

Townsend (the violator) says: because of this violation I am going to have my red pro status suspended for one month..

Wouldn't we all like to go to Traffic Court and specify our own fines and penalties after pleading guilty?

OK, it's not a 'criminal trial'... but in a civil case can we envision the self-admitted offender deciding the penalty to be imposed against themselves?

One month of NO RedPro status .... geez... there's Xmas week, then there's the New Year week... how big a penalty is it when you decide you will be penalized during a period that likely would not have been very active anyway??

 

[Marginal]

Also might I add, if you have sites like PTR who sell HH that the majority of the poker world know about? How are you to expect people to not datamine. If they do not make an attempt to shut the sites down then what is to be expected.

 

[Jack Daniels]

its not that big a deal and should not be on the TOS

That is a result of how ridiculous the rules are.

LOL I love how you completely misunderstood what I said, I said the rule was ridiculous but obviously I'm going to abide by it.

It's possible that I did misunderstand what you meant. I basically had to draw a conclusion going by the two comments quoted above. But you'll also notice that in my post that the first sentence is a question not a direct statement about you which is probably why you figured I misunderstood you. And I think you've answered the question.

So your stance is that if you don't like a rule that you agreed to, then you're within your rights to simply ignore it and violate it?

and multi accounting without the intension of playing multiple accounts in the same game is cheating

but multi-accounting to stay anonymous is not.

I agree with the first part obv, but I don't think I understand your stance on the second one. In the second case, let's say that you and I play heads-up and we gather 20k hands on each other. Then I run off, violate the TOS and create another account. Now I come back and get to start playing HU with you. You don't know it's me and have no hands on me, yet I have 20k hands on you. Is that not a significant advantage on my part? Should I not be punished to some degree for violating the TOS irrespective of the reason why?

Patrik Antonius, David Benyamine have both had a ton of accounts on ftp yet they were allowed to do so why was that any different?

I don't know anything about this, tbh so I can't comment.

Wouldn't we all like to go to Traffic Court and specify our own fines and penalties after pleading guilty?

OK, it's not a 'criminal trial'... but in a civil case can we envision the self-admitted offender deciding the penalty to be imposed against themselves?

Well to some extent we do allow that as a society; it's called plea bargaining and is done is typically done in conjunction with pleading guilty (though sometimes such as in class action suits the plea bargain is allowed without having to admit guilt).

 

[Jack Daniels]

Also might I add, if you have sites like PTR who sell HH that the majority of the poker world know about? How are you to expect people to not datamine. If they do not make an attempt to shut the sites down then what is to be expected.

Having access doesn't make it right. People buy drugs all the time, but it's illegal. Some people purchase illegal weapons, but they still do it. I guess for me it just boils down not trying to add gray areas to places where there is none. If a rule says do not do "x" and I agree to that, then if I do "x" for any reason then I'm violating the rule.

 

[Marginal]

Having access doesn't make it right. People buy drugs all the time, but it's illegal. Some people purchase illegal weapons, but they still do it. I guess for me it just boils down not trying to add gray areas to places where there is none. If a rule says do not do "x" and I agree to that, then if I do "x" for any reason then I'm violating the rule.

Yea but you have police trying to prevent people from doing it. If no one is going to try and take the site down well you are not going to stop it. But I agree with you, there should be no grey areas and they did violate the rules.

My last post, do you think its a good rule in regards to datamining?

 

[S93]

Having access doesn't make it right. People buy drugs all the time, but it's illegal. Some people purchase illegal weapons, but they still do it. I guess for me it just boils down not trying to add gray areas to places where there is none. If a rule says do not do "x" and I agree to that, then if I do "x" for any reason then I'm violating the rule.

I get what your saying but IRL the police go after drug and arms dealers but FTP does nothing to stop these sites from mining and selling hands.
Surely if they felt so strongly against this they would simply change there software to make it impossible to datamine?

 

[RJB-7]

I think were missing a pretty obvious point here in regards to the OP.

I understand what marginal, sindri and JD are saying about regural everyday players data-mining.

BUT and a big BUT at this:

Brian Townsend is a Red Pro! He is the the face of full tilt poker just as much as ivey, antonius, durrrr etc. And for him to delibaretly break TOS, knowing full well what he is doing, i think he has got away far too lightly. The 3 of them used unfair methods to break a guy because of how well he was doing. IMO what they done was out of order, and the punishment brian was given is far too light, as for the other 2 not even recieving punishment after admitting to it, just as Brian did, is dispicable.

 

[Roger1960]

If he got to keep the winnings, I don't really see where he was punished to the fullest. He can take the time off to spend some. Most likely to play in some big stake casino games.

 

[Jack Daniels]

Yea but you have police trying to prevent people from doing it. If no one is going to try and take the site down well you are not going to stop it.

I get what your saying but IRL the police go after drug and arms dealers but FTP does nothing to stop these sites from mining and selling hands.

Yep, I thought about that as well, but my guess is that FTP simply doesn't dedicate the resources to it on large scale because they feel their results would be proportional to what the polices' results are. They do go after drug and arms dealers and do catch some here and there, but by and large they are no where near doing away with the problem and never will be imo. I'm sure proactive enforcement against HH sales would ultimately be useless due to the nature of the internet. Like drugs and guns, HH will always be available to those determined to get them.

Surely if they felt so strongly against this they would simply change there software to make it impossible to datamine?

I think they've taken large steps in combating this as much as they could while still trying to balance the needs of the individual player. They've closed the loop on simple datamining by only allowing saved HH for those sitting at the table. But I'm not sure where the real balancing point is either. They have to still deal the cards to the table for the players to see. There will always be a way for violators to mass datamine (be it by screen scrape, code, whatever) They would have to make every table of every game 100% limited to just those actually sitting at the table and then only allowed those actually sitting in at the table to be able to save HH. But even with that in place it isn't possible to stop sharing of personal HH. There are just too many technology issues that can't be resolved or made unbeatable. Make a better mousetrap...

My last post, do you think its a good rule in regards to datamining?

My personal opinion is that no mass datamining should be allowed by external sites/groups for any reason. I also don't think individuals should be allowed to mass datamine on tables they aren't sitting at (though I could see more discussion on this possibly swaying me...idk). I have no issues at all with collecting HH on tables someone plays at. So I guess my personal opinion falls pretty much in line with the poker sites. In my mind it's about fairness of the game.

Sindri mentioned earlier that sharing DBs was a kin to discussing a casino player live with a friend. But I don't think that's a fair corallary. Discussing a person live is the same as discussing a person online. So if marginal and I talk on MSN and he tells me about Sindri and his general playing style so I have an idea how to approach playing him, then that's okay in my book because these are your personal thoughts and observations as you preceive them. However, if you turn around and hand me 30k HEM hands on Sindri, this is no longer simple discussion of opinion and observation but instead is cold hard fact and data on his detailed play. It's no longer about him liking to raise first in a lot in late position and that he likes to steal blinds. Instead I can see that (hypothetically) that he raises first in from the CO 80% and Btn 85% and steals 62% from the button and 3-bets UTG 21% in an open limped pot and 93% of the time likes long walks on the beach but only on the weekend with nice weather...ok, that last one probably isn't in HEM. But those kinds of statistics that are in HEM or PT3 go way beyond simple discussion of a playing. Sorry for the waffling; just trying to explain a bit why I feel the way I do about this. Plus, you asked.

 

[OzExorcist]

Brian Townsend is a Red Pro! He is the the face of full tilt poker just as much as ivey, antonius, durrrr etc. And for him to delibaretly break TOS, knowing full well what he is doing, i think he has got away far too lightly. The 3 of them used unfair methods to break a guy because of how well he was doing. IMO what they done was out of order, and the punishment brian was given is far too light, as for the other 2 not even recieving punishment after admitting to it, just as Brian did, is dispicable.

I agree that Townsend as a sponsored pro should be held to a higher standard than others.

But as for the second part of your statement, the other two players haven't admitted to violating the TOS and nobody's proved that they have. Talking about a player's tendencies away from the table doesn't violate them.

 

[RJB-7]

I do apologise, i must have mis-read it.

So what exactly has Brian Townsend been punished for that the other 2 havent?

Data-mining? Where as the other 2 only discussed the data?

 

[CasperJames]

In my opinion, what these three jokers did is despicable. Brian Townsend combined his hand histories and those of other players. He studied these hand histories and then the three of them conspired to break one particular player. What they did is unethical. Did Hastings and South cheat? I don't know, but what they did was very dirty, in my opinion.

As far as Townsend's punishment, what a joke! A player who represents the site is caught breaking the rules for the 2nd time and gets a one month Red Pro status ban. It's not just the CardRunner scumbags that look bad to me now. Fulltilt looks bad too.

 

[CasperJames]

I do apologise, i must have mis-read it.

So what exactly has Brian Townsend been punished for that the other 2 havent?

Data-mining? Where as the other 2 only discussed the data?

Yes, Townsend was punished for using hand histories that were not his own.

 

[RoyalFish]

So, Townsend acquired 30,000 hands, but not from either of the other two. Ok, who are they from, then? Both Townsend and the person who gave him the hands should be disciplined. Seriously, guys. Little old microstakes me knows not to do this.

Why is this a big deal?

Well, as some have pointed out, Red Pros are the face of Full Tilt. If the pros can cheat regular players, why should we, as regular players keep playing there? Sounds like a sucker bet to me (other than the fact that I play too low to ever run into one...). We're not talking about a slight edge, either. We're talking about $4 -MILLION-. More money than most working stiffs see in a lifetime.

What do you do if one of your employees breaks the rules in order to take $4,000,000 from one of your customers? Put them in time out for a month? Seriously? Trust doesn't matter? I think it does. I hate to say it, but if he really broke the T&C in order to win that $4 mil, I can't see keeping him on the site. A month off is just a laughable way to say they really don't think it's an issue.

RF

 

[peacebrother]

why even take up for some one who clearly broke the rules, just an example of red pro's lack of concern with TOS

 

[dan]

this is the problem with online poker you are not playing against a single player your playing against him and your own tendancies he got through a website it all should be considered cheating. Its like taking an open book test but not everyone has the book!

 

[JOEBOB69]

So, Townsend acquired 30,000 hands, but not from either of the other two. Ok, who are they from, then? Both Townsend and the person who gave him the hands should be disciplined. Seriously, guys. Little old microstakes me knows not to do this.

Why is this a big deal?

Well, as some have pointed out, Red Pros are the face of Full Tilt. If the pros can cheat regular players, why should we, as regular players keep playing there? Sounds like a sucker bet to me (other than the fact that I play too low to ever run into one...). We're not talking about a slight edge, either. We're talking about $4 -MILLION-. More money than most working stiffs see in a lifetime.

What do you do if one of your employees breaks the rules in order to take $4,000,000 from one of your customers? Put them in time out for a month? Seriously? Trust doesn't matter? I think it does. I hate to say it, but if he really broke the T&C in order to win that $4 mil, I can't see keeping him on the site. A month off is just a laughable way to say they really don't think it's an issue.

RF

THIS I couldn't have said my opinion any better.

 

[bgomez89]

Well, as some have pointed out, Red Pros are the face of Full Tilt. If the pros can cheat regular players, why should we, as regular players keep playing there? Sounds like a sucker bet to me (other than the fact that I play too low to ever run into one...). We're not talking about a slight edge, either. We're talking about $4 -MILLION-. More money than most working stiffs see in a lifetime.

What do you do if one of your employees breaks the rules in order to take $4,000,000 from one of your customers? Put them in time out for a month? Seriously? Trust doesn't matter? I think it does. I hate to say it, but if he really broke the T&C in order to win that $4 mil, I can't see keeping him on the site. A month off is just a laughable way to say they really don't think it's an issue.

RF

well FT has suspended townsend so it looks like we don't have to worry about pros cheating us without punishment

 

[RoyalFish]

well FT has suspended townsend so it looks like we don't have to worry about pros cheating us without punishment

For a month, after a prior suspension for 6. Would you risk a one month suspension for a $4,000,000 gain? It's an ineffective deterrent. The issue isn't "Will the sites do something", it's "Will the sites do something that actually deters people from breaking the rules?" If this was a poker bet, wouldn't you take it? Monster $4 million pot, and all you have to call is a one month suspension? I'm shipping that one all day long. If I don't have ethics.

RF

 

[CasperJames]

From what I understand Townsend only had his Red Pro status suspended. He can still play on Fulltilt. He just isn't a Red Pro for the next month. Sad, just so sad.

 

[DennisC98]

Brian Townsend made a blog...........

Allegations

I wanted to clear up some allegations about Brian Hastings, Cole South and myself. First Brian H. Cole S and myself never colluded. Collusion is nearly impossible HU but there was always one person playing and never any ghosting occurring. In fact the only person to break the T&C of FullTilt Poker was myself. I had about 20k hands of play on Isildur and I acquired another 30k hands. This is against the T&C of FullTilt Poker and because of this violation I am going to have my red pro status suspended for one month.

Of the three I was the sole one to break the T&C of FullTilt. The three of us never shared hands where mucked hands were shown besides a few hands I posted on weaktight.org, and in fact all the information I received could be taken from watching the game. This is not saying what I did wasn't wrong as FullTilt is very clear in its T&C, rather to clear up they type of wrong doing I partook in.


As for the accusations of team play Cole Hastings and I live about 3000 miles from each other. I have never played on Brian H's or Cole S's account. As for "conglomerating hand histories," it's simply not an accurate statement. I analyzed the database I put together, and the three of us chatted about my analysis, and optimal strategy against Isildur. According to Full Tilt's T&C this is a permissible discussion as it's super common for players at all stakes to discuss strategy and certain players tendencies. Any discussion we had occured away from the table when we were not playing a session.

 

[CasperJames]

lol @ the living 3000 miles apart. What an idiot.

 

[RoyalFish]

lol @ the living 3000 miles apart. What an idiot.

Nah, I buy it. If he doesn't know the T&C of the internet poker site on which he is a pro, he might not have noticed technologies that span 3,000 miles in milliseconds, like telephones, cell phones, or oh..the internet.

Just sayin. ;-)

RF

 

[LizzyJ]

I had about 20k hands of play on Isildur and I acquired another 30k hands.

As for "conglomerating hand histories," it's simply not an accurate statement.

Sweetheart: your 20k hands + ACQUIRING 30k hands = conglomerating hand histories

I analyzed the database I put together, and the three of us chatted about my analysis, and optimal strategy against Isildur.

Sweetheart, this is reason #2 why you are being suspended.

Thanks for implicating yourself on how helped steal $4m. It gives the kids on the site the blueprint for further larceny.