Do you even beleive this call?

KingCurtis

KingCurtis

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I've been doing well lately in HU's, from making good reads to being aggressive and just taking control I have won a mahority of my played hands. Is this call good or am I just crazy?

Round I, Level II (15/30) - 2008/04/27 - 23:50:27 (ET)
Table '86371926 1' 2-max Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: boomptid (1095 in chips)
Seat 2: KingCurtis67 (1905 in chips)
boomptid: posts small blind 15
KingCurtis67: posts big blind 30
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to KingCurtis67 [Ac 9h]
boomptid: raises 60 to 90
KingCurtis67: calls 60
*** FLOP *** [7d Ks 6h]
KingCurtis67: checks
boomptid: bets 90
KingCurtis67: calls 90
*** TURN *** [7d Ks 6h] [6c]
KingCurtis67: checks
boomptid: bets 360
KingCurtis67: calls 360
*** RIVER *** [7d Ks 6h 6c] [8c]
KingCurtis67: checks
boomptid: bets 555 and is all-in
KingCurtis67: calls 555
*** SHOW DOWN ***
boomptid: shows [3c Ad] (a pair of Sixes)
KingCurtis67: shows [Ac 9h] (a pair of Sixes - Ace+King+Nine kicker)
KingCurtis67 collected 2190 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 2190 | Rake 0
Board [7d Ks 6h 6c 8c]
Seat 1: boomptid (button) (small blind) showed [3c Ad] and lost with a pair of Sixes
Seat 2: KingCurtis67 (big blind) showed [Ac 9h] and won (2190) with a pair of Sixes
 
Stick66

Stick66

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I'll answer your question if you play me heads up. It can be a rematch with equal chips this time. Good practice, too.

What site you on now? And are you on Windows Messenger or Yahoo Messenger? If you are, PM me your ID.
 
KenFischer

KenFischer

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I think you are crazy :)

What were you putting him on here? I think it's ok to try and take it away if you think he's weak, but I would be reraising the turn if that was my read.
 
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feitr

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Yea you are absolutely crazy. It would be a totally different story if he was the one OOP and he had called your cbet then fired on the river and you could have put him on a busted draw or something. But to call half your stack off with A high is absolutely idiotic. You would not stand a CHANCE vs a decent HU player playing like this because one hand and you are value betted out of the game. Ultimately it all comes down to the read you have of the player...so calling an ultra aggressive player down is not a bad idea WHEN YOU HAVE SOMEWHAT OF A HAND. Just fold this and find a better situation because in many cases you are just going from 2:1 to 1:2 here. The reason being ultra aggressive works in HU is precisely in situations like this. Because the villain probably bets all the time you never put him on a hand and are willing to call him down with a marginal (or total crap in this case) hand. And doing so is a HUGE HUGE mistake.

There are times where it is not incorrect to lay down a better hand and this would be one of them. If you think he is full of shit, then c/r or lead out on the turn or something. NEVER EVER call somebody to the river in a situation like this where you don't have a hand. You don't have to lay down a hand every time you miss when you know there is a good chance he missed, but to call bets on each street with nothing is about the single worst thing you could ever do in HU. You play into an aggressive players hands if you are willing to pay them off when they actually hit a hand.

Also i would pop this way up preflop.
 
KenFischer

KenFischer

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Yea you are absolutely crazy. It would be a totally different story if he was the one OOP and he had called your cbet then fired on the river and you could have put him on a busted draw or something. But to call half your stack off with A high is absolutely idiotic. You would not stand a CHANCE vs a decent HU player playing like this because one hand and you are value betted out of the game. Ultimately it all comes down to the read you have of the player...so calling an ultra aggressive player down is not a bad idea WHEN YOU HAVE SOMEWHAT OF A HAND. Just fold this and find a better situation because in many cases you are just going from 2:1 to 1:2 here. The reason being ultra aggressive works in HU is precisely in situations like this. Because the villain probably bets all the time you never put him on a hand and are willing to call him down with a marginal (or total crap in this case) hand. And doing so is a HUGE HUGE mistake.

There are times where it is not incorrect to lay down a better hand and this would be one of them. If you think he is full of shit, then c/r or lead out on the turn or something. NEVER EVER call somebody to the river in a situation like this where you don't have a hand. You don't have to lay down a hand every time you miss when you know there is a good chance he missed, but to call bets on each street with nothing is about the single worst thing you could ever do in HU. You play into an aggressive players hands if you are willing to pay them off when they actually hit a hand.

[X] Great advice


Also i would pop this way up preflop.

[X] Questionable advice

Reraising pre-flop can get him into the same trouble here - it's easy to say "raise it up" when you see villian's cards, but we don't really know what he's holding here. Even someone who raises every hand can pick up a monster on occasion, and reraising plays right into that. Even if we do catch something on the flop, unless it hits us perfectly it's still going to be hard to play.

I have no problem with seeing a flop, but it's going to be hard to catch something that leaves you feeling safe. If these were suited they would be much easier to play. As posted, playing it slowly is your best bet, since you will probably be getting away from it soon.

I'm a big fan of playing for small pots heads-up (especially with the blinds so small), so when they get lucky it doesn't cripple you on one hand. There is also some value in folding this pre-flop. You don't need to play every hand heads-up (though you want to play most of them). Folding on occasion sends the message that you aren't playing any 2 cards, and when you do call, you will have something. That should serve to slow down (at least a little) all but the most insane opponents.
 
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switch0723

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awful awful call imo, his range for betting all 3 streets is absolutely crushing you, you may have been right this time, but in hte long run, that is a losing call (even with reads)
 
zachvac

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like the call. What possible hand besides a bluff does he do this with? Maybe a set? But even a set would probably play the turn differently and try not to scare him away. a K would be scared of trips and would most likely check behind here. Sure it could be a badly played set or K, but most of the time I think this is a bluff here, only problem I see is someone bluffing with like 22 and accidentally being good lol. But with reads this could easily be a good call.

btw leave out results next time if you want honest opinions.
 
Mrlova

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no offense but that is probably one of the loosest calls I've seen. You were cold calling every street and then you call down with only an Ace? I don't get how you can even make a call like that. He through four bullets at you and you keep calling, there is no way of putting him on a hand with only cold calls. Very questionable call in my opinion
 
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switch0723

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like the call. What possible hand besides a bluff does he do this with?

But our hand barely beats a bluff. Many bluffing ace high type hands have us crushed with our nine kicker
 
zachvac

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no offense but that is probably one of the loosest calls I've seen. You were cold calling every street and then you call down with only an Ace? I don't get how you can even make a call like that. He through four bullets at you and you keep calling, there is no way of putting him on a hand with only cold calls. Very questionable call in my opinion

First off it's heads up, much more aggression. Second of all that's the exact thing that makes it look like a bluff. What legitimate hand does this? Switch did bring up the one problem. A hand like a low pocket pair or a better ace that thinks it's bluffing has us beat.
 
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feitr

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[X] Great advice




[X] Questionable advice

Reraising pre-flop can get him into the same trouble here - it's easy to say "raise it up" when you see villian's cards, but we don't really know what he's holding here. Even someone who raises every hand can pick up a monster on occasion, and reraising plays right into that. Even if we do catch something on the flop, unless it hits us perfectly it's still going to be hard to play.

I have no problem with seeing a flop, but it's going to be hard to catch something that leaves you feeling safe. If these were suited they would be much easier to play. As posted, playing it slowly is your best bet, since you will probably be getting away from it soon.

I'm a big fan of playing for small pots heads-up (especially with the blinds so small), so when they get lucky it doesn't cripple you on one hand. There is also some value in folding this pre-flop. You don't need to play every hand heads-up (though you want to play most of them). Folding on occasion sends the message that you aren't playing any 2 cards, and when you do call, you will have something. That should serve to slow down (at least a little) all but the most insane opponents.

lol. A9 is an absolutely fantastic HU hand. Why on earth would you think that because you picked up A9 he has a monster?

Anyways preflop play is alot of personal preference. I like to 3 bet alot but that is because i like to put alot of pressure on and force somebody to make a mistake when i have the best hand.

I honestly can't believe you would even consider folding a hand like this. There is absolutely nothing wrong with basically playing ATC heads up and playing them aggressive (so long you know when to let a hand go...aka. this thread) because your opponent doesn't have a clue what you have. So he only has to hit middle pair when you hit top pair and it is the end of the game if he isn't willing to let it go.

It is 100% your opponent however. If he is a maniac then obviously you don't want to pop it up if you know that you will have to hit pretty hard in order to take the pot from him coz he will bet out hard. If the person is less inclined to stick around if he misses the flop then 3 betting is a very good idea etc etc

As for "Folding on occasion sends the message that you aren't playing any 2 cards, and when you do call, you will have something" well i don't know about you but i don't want my opponent having an f'ing clue what i have. I don't care if he thinks i have shit...that is how most of my HU matchs end--because somebody is unwilling to let go of their middle pair because they don't think i have anything and they get value betted out of the match.

HU isn't about winning the match. Rather it is about forcing your opponent to make a mistake and lose it.

@ zach

Well without good reads from the villains betting patterns (which obviously only OP has an idea) for all you know he has AK and you are drawing dead. What makes you think this isn't just value betting each street?
 
zachvac

zachvac

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@ zach

Well without good reads from the villains betting patterns (which obviously only OP has an idea) for all you know he has AK and you are drawing dead. What makes you think this isn't just value betting each street?


Well I obviously assumed there was a bit of a read here, pretty marginal if you're playing an unknown. But the point of poker in general is that you don't know their exact hand, but imo KC is beating opponents range here. AK would not make this play simply because after the overbet on the turn got check-called he would most likely be suspicious of the 6 and check behind for pot control.

Now personally I don't much like the play before the river, on the flop here I'd like either a bet out, a check-fold, or a check-raise unless we plan on betting the turn (especially when a scare card like the 6 comes). But as played up to the river, especially if we have a read that this player is aggressive and willing to bluff his stack like this, it seems like a call to me.
 
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feitr

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Nah i think you are giving him way too much credit. The guy tried to bluff the hero who wouldn't even lay his A high hand down aka villain = donk. The majority of hands that call this flop don't have a 6 and if you are an aggressive player it is a hand like this that you get your payoff by value betting. And the river shove isn't as "bluffy" as you would think seeing as it is only half the pot so is only marginally larger than a value bet would be (and it isn't like you bet 400 if you have a geniune hand leaving 100 in your stack).

It's just too pointless to try and make a stand on a hand like this. Even if he is bluffing so what? Do you really want to call him to the river then find he has bottom pair or a better ace or something?

You only even beat a little over half the A rags under 9 seeing as the flop had 678.

Also zach i totally disagree with checking behind on the turn in a situation like this if you have AK. If somebody is calling the turn bet with a 6 they are probably just as inclined to call your turn value bet with a 7 and if i flop top pair i'm not letting anybody see free cards/lose value bets. If somebody calls the turn bet then i would check the river behind tho with a genuine hand, so in that sense i see where you are going with it being an odd line. But when you only have 555 left it might as well all go in so it is hard to take too much from that i think.

EDIT: Wait i misread what you said...yes checking the river behind would be logical but as i said with 555 chips left you might as well win big or bust. Anyways point is that nobody should be in the pot at the river.
 
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