diary of a garden slug

[Retouraupasse]

how NOT to manage your bankroll

A friend transferred $50 to my account to get me started. I figured that was enough for me to try the 10-cent stud hi-lo tables.

After about 10 minutes of playing one table to get acclimatized to Full Tilt's interface, I tried two tables. There was an adjustment period but eventually I got the hang of it. Over about two hours of play I won 43 cents.

After that I downloaded Poker Tracker Stud and read some of the documentation. Then I played for about one more hour. Over 101 hands I won 70 cents ($1.14 at one table and a corresponding loss at the other). It looks like my play rate at two tables will be about 100 hands an hour. Assuming four hours of play a day, that's 12,000 hands a month for an expected profit of $12.

Realistically, I find the players at the 10-cent stud tables to be below my level of ability and competence, so I'm expecting my returns to be much healthier than that. But until I've got at least 5,000 tracked hands I won't be comfortable making any predictions.

The one hole in my game I see right away is sticking with iffy two-pair combinations too often--low-low, low-medium, and medium-medium. I tend to get hosed a lot by opponents with AA22 and backdoor flushes. So I'm going to work on folding those marginal two-pair combinations, especially since two pair is a universal sinkhole in poker.

Stay tuned.

Retouraupasse

 

[Dwilius]

Yeah, two low pairs on fourth street is a trap...that i still fall for sometimes. Good luck.

 

[Makwa]

Seriously funny txs. Thats how Jesus started tho... snaillike... 2 pr are argghhh.

 

[Retouraupasse]

Thanks for the good wishes! I'll post an update after 2,000 hands.

Retouraupasse

 

[Retouraupasse]

how NOT to manage your bankroll

I've now played 1,000 hands of 7-card stud hi-lo. Have a look at this, listing the pairs of tables I played at:

LEVEL HANDS WON

5c/10c 44 (0.68)
5c/10c 57 1.38

5c/10c 188 0.52
5c/10c 163 (0.06)

5c/10c 17 0.48
5c/10c 7 (0.33)

5c/10c 7 0.70
5c/10c 8 0.91

25c/50c 126 (11.25)
25c/50c 154 (23.05)

10c/20c 122 8.47
10c/20c 101 (0.78)


As a result of the flyer I took when things were going well, my bankroll is now down to half of its original amount.

On the plus side, my BB/hr is only (0.54) and my BB/100h is only (0.90).

I'm hoping I can recover but don't know whether to be optimistic or not.

Retouraupasse

 

[Juniorsdaddy]

You obviously fared OK in the .05/.10 games. Just stick to those and you should be able to recover.

I made the same mistake recently, and tried to play at a higher level. I quickly lost half my bankroll. I have since recovered, and have learned from my mistake. The bigger pots sounded good, but my bankroll was no match for the variance.

 

[kidkvno1]

Are you playing shortstacked ???
If not you could give it a go, it should work in 10NL.

You should not be playing like that, based on 1K in hands...
I have seen over 20K in hands so far, 5K being in 2NL, 5Limit.
Playing SS, well for me, i know i only have to do 4 things.
1 Fold
2 Raise
3 shove after the raise.
4 shove all-in preflop.

 

[Dwilius]

7-card stud hi-lo.

 

[the lab man]

Are you playing shortstacked ???
If not you could give it a go, it should work in 10NL.

You should not be playing like that, based on 1K in hands...
I have seen over 20K in hands so far, 5K being in 2NL, 5Limit.
Playing SS, well for me, i know i only have to do 4 things.
1 Fold
2 Raise
3 shove after the raise.
4 shove all-in preflop.

Kid read the quote below yours

 

[Retouraupasse]

You obviously fared OK in the .05/.10 games. Just stick to those and you should be able to recover.

I made the same mistake recently, and tried to play at a higher level. I quickly lost half my bankroll. I have since recovered, and have learned from my mistake. The bigger pots sounded good, but my bankroll was no match for the variance.

The huge downswing I suddenly took smells like a lot more than variance. I think Full Tilt doomswitched me in the hope that I would stick it out, go broke, and redeposit. But at the 10c/20c level so far they're treating me okay.

Retouraupasse

 

[Retouraupasse]

for them as cares

Here's a brief report of how I'm doing at my new level. Note that I play two tables at a time and the hour-related stats are for one table at a time.

Game: 10c/20c 7-card stud hi-lo
Sessions: 14
Winning sessions: 8 of 14 (57.14%)
Hours: 15.07
Hands: 1,001
Won: $7.48
BB/hr: 2.48
BB/100: 3.74
VP&$IP: 38.36
Avg pot: 1.30
A.P.: 6.5

Conclusion: Although I am under-rolled for this level at $35, I seem to have found my level of maximum incompetence.

Any comments?

Retouraupasse

Note: edited because the forum software changed A.P. to "Absolute Poker" lol

 

[absoluthamm]

I am not sure how much it changes during Stud, but I think your VP$IP is pretty high. I think you would probably be doing a little better and would definitely be more comfortable if you dropped down a limit or two so that your bankroll wouldn't be so vulnerable, but I realize with most sites and their Stud games, they don't go to the absolute micro limits like they do with hold'em.

 

[dmorris68]

I'm no stud player so maybe the recommended stats are different, but 38% VPIP seems quite high. I'd say you're playing much too loose unless stud numbers are normally higher.

On its face the winrate seems good, but the sample size is so tiny as to make the measurements almost meaningless at this point. However I understand that starting out from zero, those would be encouraging numbers -- just keep in mind that variance has a nasty habit of sucking you into a false state of confidence before dropping the hammer on you.

EDIT: Had that all typed up before someone walked in my office, so absoluthamm beat me to the submit.

 

[Retouraupasse]

I'd love to hear from experienced stud players what a good VPIP for stud is. It's going to be higher than for holdem because there are five betting rounds, including three at the BB level. With hi-lo the VPIP will be even higher because you call on third street far more often than you'd call with a basic hold'em starting hand.

All the same, thanks for the input.

Retouraupasse

 

[absoluthamm]

Haha, beat you to it dmorris.

Ok, so I did some research for you and found out about the VPIP for Stud. A VPIP of about 20% is just about perfect in full-handed game. Anything between around 18-25% can't be too terrible at a fullhanded game just because of the extra betting rounds, but anything lower is playing too tight and higher is being too loose. As the stakes go up and the antes get larger in relation to the betting sizes, you need to steal more, because other players are going to be stealing more as well.

 

[Makwa]

With hi-lo the VPIP will be even higher because you call on third street far more often than you'd call with a basic hold'em starting hand.

All the same, thanks for the input.

Retouraupasse

I play up to 3/6 hi lo, usually around .25 or .50 limits, have been doing well at it for years... now, you are absolutely wrong with this statement. The only way to consistently win in stud8 is to limit starting hands to those with scoop possibility, like 3 babies suited, 3 lo w str8 draw etc. You are playing way too many hands; I expect you are also playing high pairs or 2 lo with a rag, or small prs -- those hands should only be played under optimal conditions, if at all. The PLATINUM rule (Todd Brunson) is only play hands that can pay both ways. Yr VPIP should be around 20%.

Your sample size here is way too small to indicate anything. But if u keep playing so many hands, you will definitely lose in the long run.

Get Ray Zee's book on Hi Lo split poker.

Haha, beat you to it dmorris.

Ok, so I did some research for you and found out about the VPIP for Stud. A VPIP of about 20% is just about perfect in full-handed game. Anything between around 18-25% can't be too terrible at a fullhanded game just because of the extra betting rounds, but anything lower is playing too tight and higher is being too loose. As the stakes go up and the antes get larger in relation to the betting sizes, you need to steal more, because other players are going to be stealing more as well.

Stud and Stud8 are different games, altho I think a 20% ballpark is acceptable in both. BTW stakes do not go up in limit cash games, so that strategy does not hold. MTTs are a whole different ball of wax; we are talking ring here.

 

[Dwilius]

If you're going to keep updating on your progress, let's keep it in one thread. I've merged three here.

 

[absoluthamm]

Whoa, I was just very confused about what thread I was posting in...knew I didn't post in a thread title Diary of a (whatever it is), then ready D's post and got it.

Stud and Stud8 are different games, altho I think a 20% ballpark is acceptable in both. BTW stakes do not go up in limit cash games, so that strategy does not hold. MTTs are a whole different ball of wax; we are talking ring here.

I realize this, this was from the other thread that had a little less information about it all. Also, I was just posting something about avg. VPIP that I found elsewhere, not what I myself personally feels. I have played stud quite a bit in the past, but it has always been something that I never kept my stats on, basically because HEM doesn't do it.

 

[Juniorsdaddy]

I play up to 3/6 hi lo, usually around .25 or .50 limits, have been doing well at it for years... now, you are absolutely wrong with this statement. The only way to consistently win in stud8 is to limit starting hands to those with scoop possibility, like 3 babies suited, 3 lo w str8 draw etc. You are playing way too many hands; I expect you are also playing high pairs or 2 lo with a rag, or small prs -- those hands should only be played under optimal conditions, if at all. The PLATINUM rule (Todd Brunson) is only play hands that can pay both ways. Yr VPIP should be around 20%.

Your sample size here is way too small to indicate anything. But if u keep playing so many hands, you will definitely lose in the long run.

I have played my fair share of Stud Hi and Hi/Lo. When my VPIP was in the 30s, I was losing quite a bit. Before I stopped playing Stud regularly, I was down to the mid 20s, but I don't think that was quite enough. When I have my bankroll built up at the end of the month, I may try to play again, probably at the .10/.20 level, since that is where I felt most comfortable.

I agree with the hand selection. In Hi/Lo, you must always be after scooping the pot. In Hi, you should strictly play high pairs, rolled-up hands, and three card draws to start. If fourth street doesn't help your draw, get out ASAP. As for the other hands, pay attention to your opponent's show cards for any potential beat cards. For example, if you have a pair of Kings and someone is showing an Ace, don't even bother.

Good luck.