Is This Cheating? (SoftPlay)

[alienat3d]

Live play and Player 1 arrives to the table being loud and announcing how good of a player he is because he is a regular in the room.

Player 2 arrives to the table and everyone knows his name and he is even louder than Player 1. They both claimed to know each other well....fine.

They get into a hand where they are the remaining 2 players on the river. The river brings the 4th heart on the board.

Player 2 bets OOP and Player 1 just calls with the Ah for the nut flush. Player 2 shows the Kh and mucks.

I ask if I just witnessed Player 1 NOT raising Player 2 with the stone cold nuts. The table turns to look at me and Player 1 states that "He would not have called a raise." I answer that he would have called at least a minimum raise with his 2nd nuts hand.

I ask you….do you think Player 1 would have raised a different player in the hand (maybe me)?

You might think that soft play is just friendly play between people that know each other and there is no harm to other players at the table that are not in the hand. But what it results in - is half the table NOT playing hard against each other - but just playing hard against me!

Think about it.....and Good luck !

Wait a second, did you say the half table?! Are you sure? WTF then, I'd choose another place to play then.
The problem is, that you can't forbid friends to play together in a game in advance, because: a) you don't know in advance, if they going to play soft among each other or not, b) how you ever know, that they are actually friends. Of course you would know after couple of times they coming to play, but then again, if it's just soft play without collusions, it's plainly silly on place of casino to forbid the play for the regs, who keep coming, right?

As I mentioned in my previous post, it's a lot of difference, which game the buddies play. In cash games it's way more critical, than in a tournament. Because in tournament by doing soft play they basically shoot themselves in feet, losing valuable spots for increasing their stacks. Because they will pay blinds and antes anyway. So it can be even seen, as kind of play in favor to you.

And to be honest, if you're a better player, you shouldn't be scared, if they "playing hard" with you, because you know how to use their aggression against them and outplay them.
Until they try to use dirty tricks like chip dumping or sandwich situations, then you simply call tournament manager and they shall call out someone to watch your table, so that they stop doing it or even to disqualify them for trying team play.

 

[korneel]

There's a small line between soft play and chip dumping.
Chip dumping is def. cheating, soft play really depends on the situation.
Maybe he has an specific strategy that doesn't work against his friend, because his friend knows about the strategy.
In my first live tournament I also avoided one player on the table, because he was just so unpredictable.

 

[fundiver199]

If two buddies registered to a tournament and happened to play at the same table and trying to avoid playing against each other big pots, it's not really can be called cheating, until they exploiting some third player in obvious way.

If its just a silent understanding between them, that they are not going aggressively after each other, then I would not call it cheating. As others have said, there are also situations, where we might want to avoid getting involved with a certain player for many other reasons than him being our "buddy". Maybe he is the chip leader, maybe we feel, he is better than us, maybe we just dont like the way, he play.

However if they actively agreed to soft play each other, then that is definitely cheating. And its also fairly naive to think, that players, who communicate during play, will limit it to a decision about soft playing each other. When she spirit is out of the bottle anyway, you can be pretty sure, they are also sharing information about hole cards and giving each other advice.

To be honest I did that many years ago with a buddy on Zynga Poker mainly to try to help him improve his game. On a play money site like that I think, its a bit whatever, and the site was full of rampant collusion and bots anyway, so I certainly dont feel quilty about it.

But I dont think, its ok at all, if people do this in games for real money. So if we end up on a table with a "buddy" by coincidence, we should keep our path clean and do no more than use the table chat to say hi to him. No Messenger, Skype, phone call or anything outside of the poker table.

 

[Poker_Mike]

Wait a second, did you say the half table?! Are you sure? WTF then, I'd choose another place to play then.
The problem is, that you can't forbid friends to play together in a game in advance, because: a) you don't know in advance, if they going to play soft among each other or not, b) how you ever know, that they are actually friends. Of course you would know after couple of times they coming to play, but then again, if it's just soft play without collusions, it's plainly silly on place of casino to forbid the play for the regs, who keep coming, right?

As I mentioned in my previous post, it's a lot of difference, which game the buddies play. In cash games it's way more critical, than in a tournament. Because in tournament by doing soft play they basically shoot themselves in feet, losing valuable spots for increasing their stacks. Because they will pay blinds and antes anyway. So it can be even seen, as kind of play in favor to you.

And to be honest, if you're a better player, you shouldn't be scared, if they "playing hard" with you, because you know how to use their aggression against them and outplay them.
Until they try to use dirty tricks like chip dumping or sandwich situations, then you simply call tournament manager and they shall call out someone to watch your table, so that they stop doing it or even to disqualify them for trying team play.

Yes it was a cashgame. I didn't know anyone in the room really. So, half the table, two of nine - no difference to me.

I just asked for a table change and went to a different table.

I don't need to sit there and challenge the collusion to find out if I am a "good enough" player to overcome the cheating.

That was my recent experience.

Good luck !

 

[tw082]

Not cheating whats the difference between that and me firing at everyone at table except the person that's hot or someone i know is real good. Lots of times there will be someone at table i am very friendly with because we r both in every tournament so we know each other and we also avoid each other until we both have good hand and cant lay down just because hes betting, No point in going up against the other good player with big stack at the table unless equipped to do so just smart play. Avoid sharks go for fish! You can never say for certain why he is or isn't betting that person anyway, sometimes 1 person just has your #. If they're not chip dumping, signaling to tell their cards or teaming up on you I don't think it's cheating.

 

[xy23]

Screw guys who do this. Collusion or not or whether it's in the gray area, it's still a dick move to your fellow poker players.

 

[tw082]

There are times that are unacceptable i've been in 10 man 50/50 double up late at night and it was obvious several players played these all the time and knew each other. When it got down to six the lowest stack would raise n others would fold like clock work and they all fired at me hard. Finally i said something told them I had my OBS studio on and if they don't start playing each other i would report them. I didn't get called or raised again! But this was obvious dumping and 5 way sandwich.

 

[Poker_Mike]

Not cheating whats the difference between that and me firing at everyone at table except the person that's hot or someone i know is real good. Lots of times there will be someone at table i am very friendly with because we r both in every tournament so we know each other and we also avoid each other until we both have good hand and cant lay down just because hes betting, No point in going up against the other good player with big stack at the table unless equipped to do so just smart play. Avoid sharks go for fish! You can never say for certain why he is or isn't betting that person anyway, sometimes 1 person just has your #. If they're not chip dumping, signaling to tell their cards or teaming up on you I don't think it's cheating.

The biggest difference is that the slow-play behavior will be reciprocated. Sometimes you can see the players slow-playing each other on the turn and river.

Also, in my example the player had the stone-cold nuts!

Good luck !

 

[barbados]

Just a strategy. Even if it's a bluff.

 

[izpanol]

It is not simply a trap, but it is not an honest game, it is recommended to stop playing in cases so you have little chance of winning in the long term.

 

[tw082]

The biggest difference is that the slow-play behavior will be reciprocated. Sometimes you can see the players slow-playing each other on the turn and river.

Also, in my example the player had the stone-cold nuts!

Good luck !

Agreed nuts make huge difference, even 2nd them having both is fd up.Like i stated we avoid until we have a good hand never soft play anyone with a good hand. I was originally replying to post that did not mention this. I went back and read post that did and completely agree that it's wrong. In a tournament not sure what i'd do because can't just leave and it's hard to prove plus might not be considered cheating by whatever establishment it occurred. Cash all u can do is move tables and never sit with them again.

 

[west28]

its just not wanting to go against your buddies or playing soft till your either heads up.

 

[Erickaie]

Not cool "unethical" tho!

 

[rmcneice]

Could be he doesn't him all that well and wants to see his holdings rather than raise, take the same amount and never know what the opponent bets the river OOP with.

 

[LeeCallaghan]

lol unethical is right. I'm not sure about cheating. But I dont know

 

[CallmeFloppy]

This is a form of collusion and fits in the form of cheating.

Some people have asked "what is the difference if I do that or if I am avoiding a player that is hot" The difference is the intent of your actions. Poker is a game of single players playing for their own benefit, not for the benefit of their opponent. When you intentionally choose to play in a way that benefits someone else, you are in collusion with that player and playing outside the rules of the game.

Even if no one else is in the hand, for a tournament you are still affecting the flow of chips in the game. That could be difference of someone making or missing the money or a pay level. It may not affect anyone else in that hand, but the ripple affects very well could.

 

[KristaK]

hi hi
thanks explain - i never consider watch for "collusion"
is terrible cheating!
i lose all the time anyway - then on top that opponents cheat in this fashion?
i hope the pokersites security people watch and stop this evil cheating thing

 

[Lindarns]

Why would it?

 

[dgellitson]

I wouldn't call it cheating but it is bad poker etiquette

 

[Poker_Mike]

Agreed nuts make huge difference, even 2nd them having both is fd up.Like i stated we avoid until we have a good hand never soft play anyone with a good hand. I was originally replying to post that did not mention this. I went back and read post that did and completely agree that it's wrong. In a tournament not sure what i'd do because can't just leave and it's hard to prove plus might not be considered cheating by whatever establishment it occurred. Cash all u can do is move tables and never sit with them again.

In a tournament it is a 1-round penalty to have last action and not bet the nuts. So, that would be discovered. I've seen this before in live play and the player always seems bewildered that they actually had to bet...in both cases they knew they had the nut straight on a board that is not paired or flushed.

In cash you can let the management know about your suspicions. And, in my case I called him out on it - and then moved tables. Actually, I'm lucky I didn't get shanked! To be fair to his buddy - his buddy led out for a value OOP on the river. Really - the player with the nuts (that did not raise) is a fool.

You can not be a winning player if you don't get value for your good hands (especially the nuts).

Good luck !

 

[MikeCarasone]

If a player is deliberately playing soft against their friend at the table it is definitely a form of cheating. Collusion whether the friend knows it or not negatively will affect the game. It is certainly cheating. If you are not playing against every opponent with the goal of winning as much as possible against them then it’s not appropriate. Soft playing ones friend instead of playing aggressively can be costly as well. Seen to players who were obviously friends playing at Foxwoods, first guy was very loose and opened many hands light. His friend was the last one (maybe the 4th or 5th to call)in the pot and simply flatted. . Flop comes 778 with 2 clubs. Friend A cbet gets raised and rerasied, now it’s on friend 2, who goes all in. Friend 1 couldn’t fold fast enough. Obv his aggressive friend built the pot up and he didn’t play his normal way and simply calling preflop he let the 2 others stay in the pot cheaply. They both called his ill timed shove with ace 2 clubs, and 78. Guy had aces cracked because he soft played his buddy’s raises. Should’ve bet bigger preflop and he likely would’ve taken it down or at the very least got the off suit 78 (winning hand ) off his hand. No doubt had his friend not been in this hand he would have raised preflop. Soft playing cost him a huge pot. At least 3 -4 buy ins.

 

[woohoo sue]

Live play and Player 1 arrives to the table being loud and announcing how good of a player he is because he is a regular in the room.

Player 2 arrives to the table and everyone knows his name and he is even louder than Player 1. They both claimed to know each other well....fine.

They get into a hand where they are the remaining 2 players on the river. The river brings the 4th heart on the board.

Player 2 bets OOP and Player 1 just calls with the Ah for the nut flush. Player 2 shows the Kh and mucks.

I ask if I just witnessed Player 1 NOT raising Player 2 with the stone cold nuts. The table turns to look at me and Player 1 states that "He would not have called a raise." I answer that he would have called at least a minimum raise with his 2nd nuts hand.

I ask you….do you think Player 1 would have raised a different player in the hand (maybe me)?

You might think that soft play is just friendly play between people that know each other and there is no harm to other players at the table that are not in the hand. But what it results in - is half the table NOT playing hard against each other - but just playing hard against me!

Think about it.....and Good luck !

I liken these thoughts to the Black Jack player that blames me for not playing "correctly" and causing him to lose money.......sigh.

 

[demibar]

It could be cheating ...but not off the rules so...

 

[Poker_Mike]

I liken these thoughts to the Black Jack player that blames me for not playing "correctly" and causing him to lose money.......sigh.

I understand how you can think this.

But really they are very different situations.

In blackjack you are not playing against other players. You are playing against the house.

In poker you are not playing against the house but against other players.

If two or more players are playing softly against each other with the same mindset then it is like you are playing against one player in two or more seats. They are only looking for chips from you and not others (some) at the table.

Good luck !

 

[swoopdonk]

It isn't cheating per say but I would get off that table when I see crazy shit like that. I've encountered the over aggressive guy at quite a few $1/2 cash games. I just pick up my chips and go find another game.