Matt Vaughan
King of Moody Rants
Bronze Level
All you have to do is look at high stakes and nosebleeds live poker and see that they are playing like 200nl online regs to realize that online poker is tougher.
People talk about online poker being hard to move up stakes, but the truth is that even regs at low limits are playing relatively well these days. At live 1/2, you still have people limp/calling for 15% of their stack. You can argue until you're blue in the face that there are "style differences" but that's a mistake. Move up to like 10/25 and things will start to look much more like "an online game."
People talk about online poker being hard to move up stakes, but the truth is that even regs at low limits are playing relatively well these days. At live 1/2, you still have people limp/calling for 15% of their stack. You can argue until you're blue in the face that there are "style differences" but that's a mistake. Move up to like 10/25 and things will start to look much more like "an online game."
R
rickyojo
Rising Star
Bronze Level
Live poker is easier
I think that everybody is missing the point. Online you're playing against the computer as well as the other players. Online play is just a video game that uses poker rules. Live poker in a casino is real poker. RY
I think that everybody is missing the point. Online you're playing against the computer as well as the other players. Online play is just a video game that uses poker rules. Live poker in a casino is real poker. RY
S3mper
Poker Not Checkers
Loyaler
I think playing Live is easier for the simple reason that a higher % of peole playing Live poker are playing to have fun and to enjoy themselves and even doing things such as drinking and socializing.
Where online you have fewer people playing to just have fun and more playing to get better at poker and instead of drinking they are using HUDs and instead of socializing they are correctly putting you on a range of hands lol
People play 1/2 Live like some one would play .01/0.2 online. They don't understand what your check raise means they aren't putting you on hand ranges if they have top pair they are never folding..
I was playing 1/2 live (300 Max Buyin) and flopped a set of 3's on a KJ3 board and GII against two people one with K7 the other with AQ... of course the T came on the river.. but still.. My tight image and only showing up with the nuts should have told them they were wayyy behind but they see they hit it doesn't matter how hard they will play it..
Online if I flopped a set there no way am I GII as easy at even 25NL...
People are looking for a thrill Live and chasing a straight is a thrill people are looking to improve/play for a living online
Where online you have fewer people playing to just have fun and more playing to get better at poker and instead of drinking they are using HUDs and instead of socializing they are correctly putting you on a range of hands lol
People play 1/2 Live like some one would play .01/0.2 online. They don't understand what your check raise means they aren't putting you on hand ranges if they have top pair they are never folding..
I was playing 1/2 live (300 Max Buyin) and flopped a set of 3's on a KJ3 board and GII against two people one with K7 the other with AQ... of course the T came on the river.. but still.. My tight image and only showing up with the nuts should have told them they were wayyy behind but they see they hit it doesn't matter how hard they will play it..
Online if I flopped a set there no way am I GII as easy at even 25NL...
People are looking for a thrill Live and chasing a straight is a thrill people are looking to improve/play for a living online
Jacki Burkhart
long winded rambler...
Silver Level
This is the best rationale I have heard so far. The other was duggs point about online the regs multi table and live they can't. Those are 2 pretty compelling reasons.
I will concede the point that at the exact same stakes, live is easier than online. But that wasn't my question. Since we ALL equate $5 online with roughly $200 live I'm trying to compare the 2 games that are likely to have the same caliber of player as far as experience. To state that the only thing that makes a game easy or hard is the field us just one aspect of the game. Perhaps a big one, but not the whole picture.
The problem I have with comparing $100 online tourney to a $100 live tourney is that if you do that...then what are you ever going to compare a $1 online tourney to? It even a $5 or $10 or $20 online tourney... There is no comparison that exists so you can't make a consistent, logical case.
I have noticed that most of the respondents except about 3 didn't state what % of live they play...so I wonder if that means they primarily play online.
Jacki Burkhart
long winded rambler...
Silver Level
Huh...ok. I don't understand why you'd take the time to post that but we're all entitled to our opinions.
The reason I started this thread is because I post a lot of live hands for review and I frequently get comments like "well since live is easier and the players are so bad you should..." And while at the sane exact stakes that may be true I'm talking about a $500 or $1,000 tourney and people who play $5-$20 online are telling me that ABC strategy is all you need to play live, or they assume all these tourneys are soft bingo-fests just because they are live.
I don't think there is anything wrong or pointless about challenging widely held assumptions...even if it turns out I'm wrong. In poker and in life it's not enough to just believe something, you need to know why you believe something to be effective.
S3mper
Poker Not Checkers
Loyaler
I haven't played live nearly as much as I would like to mostly because of my bad eye sight I'm currently making an appointment to see if I am a candidate for LASIK's
I honestly think the hardest part about Live is seeing the cards lol.. that and the discomfort of a staredown with or without the nuts (it's awkward)
When I do play live I usually stay till everyone leaves which can be 1 to 8 hours =o
however to answer the question I would say 95% online to 5% Live but that's mostly because I'm always online lol
I honestly think the hardest part about Live is seeing the cards lol.. that and the discomfort of a staredown with or without the nuts (it's awkward)
When I do play live I usually stay till everyone leaves which can be 1 to 8 hours =o
however to answer the question I would say 95% online to 5% Live but that's mostly because I'm always online lol
LizRang
Enthusiast
Silver Level
I have not played live a lot yet so I took the last option.
From a nuts and bolts perspective, online is easier because it gives you all the chip counts and whatnot. First time I played live I was confused, the game seemed to go SO fast I was missing my turn had to ask questions of things I should have known, etc. And I was concentrating!!
I was also nervous though, and that didn't help.
I really think that it is difficult to compare the two though, they are just different. I tend to play a good game more consistently at live games because I focus 100%. I don't have any other potential distractions (phone/daughter/door ... dog and cats!). I also feel a lot more competitive when I'm actually sitting at a table. At the same time, if I play somewhere I haven't played before ... because I haven't played a lot of live ... I still get nervous.
tells are the other thing ... if you give them away and you can't pick them up - you're going to do better online! If you don't give them away and you can pick them up that's a big advantage and live is going to be easier for you.
From a nuts and bolts perspective, online is easier because it gives you all the chip counts and whatnot. First time I played live I was confused, the game seemed to go SO fast I was missing my turn had to ask questions of things I should have known, etc. And I was concentrating!!
I was also nervous though, and that didn't help. I really think that it is difficult to compare the two though, they are just different. I tend to play a good game more consistently at live games because I focus 100%. I don't have any other potential distractions (phone/daughter/door ... dog and cats!). I also feel a lot more competitive when I'm actually sitting at a table. At the same time, if I play somewhere I haven't played before ... because I haven't played a lot of live ... I still get nervous.
tells are the other thing ... if you give them away and you can't pick them up - you're going to do better online! If you don't give them away and you can pick them up that's a big advantage and live is going to be easier for you.
S3mper
Poker Not Checkers
Loyaler
I have not played live a lot yet so I took the last option.
From a nuts and bolts perspective, online is easier because it gives you all the chip counts and whatnot. First time I played live I was confused, the game seemed to go SO fast I was missing my turn had to ask questions of things I should have known, etc. And I was concentrating!!
I really think that it is difficult to compare the two though, they are just different. I tend to play a good game more consistently at live games because I focus 100%. I don't have any other potential distractions (phone/daughter/door ... dog and cats!). I also feel a lot more competitive when I'm actually sitting at a table. At the same time, if I play somewhere I haven't played before ... because I haven't played a lot of live ... I still get nervous.
Tells are the other thing ... if you give them away and you can't pick them up - you're going to do better online! If you don't give them away and you can pick them up that's a big advantage and live is going to be easier for you.
whenever I play Live my hands will shake when I handle my chips for the first 10 to 15 minutes in till I settle in. The fact that I have anxiety does not help I'm sure.. After I take down a pot or two and am comfortable the shaking stops and I have a lot of fun... Except whenever I am being stared down I feel as if my lip wants to quiver when I am bluffing lol and I hate being stared at for long lengths of time especially when I know I'm being stared at.. I need to work on it.
Chip counts is another thing that can make live difficult at first but I am slowly getting the hang of it and am getting better at stacking chips, keeping a chip count where I'm not counting my stack every 5 seconds...
The other thing I still can screw up is keeping track of the pot and I have to do a quick recap of everything before I bet to figure out how much to bet lol..
Skill wise however I would say that in general online players are tougher for the reason I mentioned earlier; More live players are there to have fun and for an experience then people who play online poker took the time to download the software create an account and are there for the sole purpose of playing poker, not as ,many recreational players find it fun sitting in front of a laptop for hours playing for 20 bucks or so..
D
DunningKruger
Legend
Silver Level
Uh what is this topic trying to compare? 1/2 live to 5NL online? Nothing about the stakes is mentioned in the OP and I didn't really read the topic in a meticulous manner, so are we just shifting around goal posts as we go along or is this poll genuinely geared toward 5NL players who are also live regs.
D
DunningKruger
Legend
Silver Level
When everyone talks about live play generally being a lot softer than online, two things should be kept in mind. One is that they are absolutely correct. Two is that the context of the comparison is typically the amount of money that can be made on a per hand basis. Earning money is the reason any serious player plays the game and ultimately the only way to really "keep score". The reasons live play is easier are numerous, and I'll list a few right now off the top of my head.
1. In casinos, the lowest stakes are 100 times richer than the lowest stakes online. The worst live players are playing with and betting hundreds of dollars while the worst players online are sitting on stacks that wouldn't afford you a chocolate bar. So, if the goal is winning money, it's easier to do so in a live setting than to win the same amount playing penny games on the internet. When you get to online games where the stakes are anything near what they splash around in casinos then the players are going to be approx three bajillion zillion times better than the live players they're being compared to.
2. When a live player wants to make more money, they move up in stakes. when an online player wants to make more money, they can add more tables instead of moving up. Not only does the player remain in a limit he might have otherwise graduated from but now there are 8 of him. Or 12 of him. Or more.
3. Getting into a live game is a lot more casual than an online one. This is a point I read on another message board a long time ago and it always stuck with me as being a very good one. Live games often have players with very limited experience stumble into a seat to try their luck while looking for something to do until a seat at the blackjack table (or the craps table or the bar or w/e) becomes available. Online you need to download and install the software, register your account and then go through the process of actually getting some money deposited. Online takes a far greater level of dedication just to get started.
4. A commonly mentioned point is that online players play many more hands than their live counterparts, which means they've been in pretty much every situation you can imagine numerous times and are a lot more experienced by definition.
5. There's a plethora of tools and software out there for online players to improve themselves with. You need an HUD just to even the playing field with your competition. Online players have an extensive database of hands which they can study away from the tables to repair leaks in their game.
6. Alcohol. Enough said.
I've played many countless hours of live poker for more than a decade (including 7 hours last night) and I've played much more than that online. To me, it's not even a debate which is easier overall.
1. In casinos, the lowest stakes are 100 times richer than the lowest stakes online. The worst live players are playing with and betting hundreds of dollars while the worst players online are sitting on stacks that wouldn't afford you a chocolate bar. So, if the goal is winning money, it's easier to do so in a live setting than to win the same amount playing penny games on the internet. When you get to online games where the stakes are anything near what they splash around in casinos then the players are going to be approx three bajillion zillion times better than the live players they're being compared to.
2. When a live player wants to make more money, they move up in stakes. when an online player wants to make more money, they can add more tables instead of moving up. Not only does the player remain in a limit he might have otherwise graduated from but now there are 8 of him. Or 12 of him. Or more.
3. Getting into a live game is a lot more casual than an online one. This is a point I read on another message board a long time ago and it always stuck with me as being a very good one. Live games often have players with very limited experience stumble into a seat to try their luck while looking for something to do until a seat at the blackjack table (or the craps table or the bar or w/e) becomes available. Online you need to download and install the software, register your account and then go through the process of actually getting some money deposited. Online takes a far greater level of dedication just to get started.
4. A commonly mentioned point is that online players play many more hands than their live counterparts, which means they've been in pretty much every situation you can imagine numerous times and are a lot more experienced by definition.
5. There's a plethora of tools and software out there for online players to improve themselves with. You need an HUD just to even the playing field with your competition. Online players have an extensive database of hands which they can study away from the tables to repair leaks in their game.
6. Alcohol. Enough said.
I've played many countless hours of live poker for more than a decade (including 7 hours last night) and I've played much more than that online. To me, it's not even a debate which is easier overall.
Matt Vaughan
King of Moody Rants
Bronze Level
LOL. Idk whether to interpret that as passive-aggressive or something else entirely, but how do you expect me to compare what % of live vs. online I play? Hours played? # of hands played? Present, past, or lifetime?
Currently I play about 70% live, 30% online in terms of focus and hours, with obviously more hands being played online.
Edit: Well said, DK. Didn't have the patience to make as long a post as you, but I agree with everything you stated.
Leo 50
Legend
Silver Level
I really think they are two different animals. I don't necessarily feel either one is easier.
Playing about 70% of my time live
The online players (the ones who are multi-tabling) are usually playing with the stats,
either with a HUD or using their own particular style. No pair, Ace-rag, unsuited rags...fold'em
AK-AQ-AJ, mid to upper pairs, raise'em.
All good responses, all reasonable actions.
Most of the time they don't look at position as a major factor in their decisions and
they might not even be aware of what the rest of the table is capable of doing.
(Now this a general viewpoint, not every online player does this)
So in some ways online is easier.
In live play you must concentrate on one table, a limited number of other players and
pay attention to the action around you. I find that a lot easier than playing 6 or 8 tables
on my computer even with a HUD.
Both games can easily be won (sometimes) and more often than not, lose big time
Just my 2 cents
Playing about 70% of my time live
The online players (the ones who are multi-tabling) are usually playing with the stats,
either with a HUD or using their own particular style. No pair, Ace-rag, unsuited rags...fold'em
AK-AQ-AJ, mid to upper pairs, raise'em.
All good responses, all reasonable actions.
Most of the time they don't look at position as a major factor in their decisions and
they might not even be aware of what the rest of the table is capable of doing.
(Now this a general viewpoint, not every online player does this)
So in some ways online is easier.
In live play you must concentrate on one table, a limited number of other players and
pay attention to the action around you. I find that a lot easier than playing 6 or 8 tables
on my computer even with a HUD.
Both games can easily be won (sometimes) and more often than not, lose big time
Just my 2 cents
duggs
Killing me softly
Silver Level
your generalisations of online play are pretty absurd.
BenjiHustle
Legend
Silver Level
So, I gather nobody else finds the aspect of patience to be a factor in the difficulty of live play? I'm sort of a jitterbug, but I thought for sure others found it difficult to sit next to these disgusting, stinky, fat turds with their dirty, scum-covered chips (trying to scrape the nasty off without getting it under their nails), just to have some douchefish snap-call J-7off all-in to hit a gutshot on the river. THEN, have to sit there next to that same disgusting mound waiting to get your absurdly raked money back.
I'm clearly less patient than every poker player who ever lived. Lol
I'm clearly less patient than every poker player who ever lived. Lol
kidkvno1
Sarah's Pet
Bronze Level
I think i could pick up live poker quick, since i don't use a HUD or tracker.
Tells might be a big problem!
Jacki Burkhart
long winded rambler...
Silver Level
Haha...I didn't really mean it to be passive aggressive...but reading back on it, it sounds like it.
. In your opinion. But in my opinion your generalizations about live poker are quite absurd.
It's funny I kind if play both sides on this topic because I have a bunch of live poker friends who talk about how soft online poker is, and how they can always spot an online player who sits down at a live table and they eat him alive (so they claim). I can spot then too....EASY but I don't always school them, sometimes they school me. I try to explain to my live poker friends why online us quite difficult and why they should play tiny stakes to start. They can't be convinced either.
I think in the end we all naturally gravitate toward what we like better, or what works better for us and then we delude ourselves into believing we are beating the tougher game. I'm quite guilty, we all have our bias and mine is obviously toward live...so I approach all of this with the mindset to "defend the honor of live poker". Because it's what I love, I want it to be respected. I think if we're all honest with ourselves we can spot our own biases, but I really AM trying to understand!
. Haha yes! I'm with you on this. There is also a much bigger emotional and psychological game that happens live compared to online. I'm not saying it doesn't happen online, but live is a much more visceral experience. Every hand is more intense, more smells, looks, sighs, pauses, stares, dirty looks etc. every hand you become involved in is potentially a big social interaction, which adds another layer of pressure.
Debi
Forum Admin
Administrator
You see the same amount live - you can just play so many more hands online that it seems like more.
Matt Vaughan
King of Moody Rants
Bronze Level
Have to agree with duggs, that you can't say most people aren't utilizing position. Looking at the majority of people's stats online, we see that they open widest from the button and progressively less wide the closer they get to UTG.
Plus there is a HUGE logical fallacy happening when you suggest that everyone is just playing their two cards and not thinking about who they are playing against but ALSO they rely heavily on HUD's in their decision-making process. These two things are mutually exclusive, given that the HUD stats are directly based off of players' tendencies.
Meanwhile, I can state the EXACT same generalization that you've mentioned for online poker, apply it to live poker, and give much more compelling evidence for its validity:
1. Most live players don't utilize position:
- Many players limp/call the same frequencies no matter where they sit at the table
2. Most live players don't think about other players' tendencies:
- Many players are playing the exact same way in hands against entirely different people
- They lack any kind of understanding about what someone's action means, unless it is the same player type as they are (usually loose passive)
- They call off too wide against nits, and fold too much against lags
Staneff
Rock Star
Silver Level
I voted "No. They are different but equally difficult." . If you play more online you`ll find live abit harder and if you play live playing online will be harder for you. It`s hard to adapt to different play styles. In live poker factors in making decision are not only opponents bets so playing live and online cant be compared.
