M
Marginal
Junior Member
Silver Level
Depends on what they are playing but if it is chinese poker, I think chan has the edge.
Btw, while chan is obviously a good player I dont think that is a game that will be profitable for him. that is if it is nl or plo
Btw, while chan is obviously a good player I dont think that is a game that will be profitable for him. that is if it is nl or plo
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onemorechance
live free or die
Silver Level
Well you see this kinda brings us onto the point of what's wrong with this thread. You bring up that Chan plays in Bobby's Room, which is true, but there's two points about that. One is that as well as very, very good players, Bobby's Room is also frequented by wealthy businessmen, who he is obviously going to be better than. Secondly, they play a mixed cash game in Bobby's Room, which Chan may well be very good at. Now I was saying in my point that I'd believe that he'd be the fish on a cash no limit table of like Dwan, Ivey, Antonius and Galfond. Whhiccchhh eventually brings us round to my point about what's wrong with this thread. It's just so subjective (primarily because we don't know how good these players are) and nobody can really say who is the 'best player ever'. You'd have to break it down to like 'best no limit player', 'best plo player, 'best mixed game player', 'best shourthanded player' etc etc etc
Cliffs - Thread sucks
dmorris68
Legend
Loyaler
I agree that it's highly subjective -- of course any "who's the best" discussion will be, but we always have them anyway, and not just for poker. It's just for fun anyway. 
But I disagree strongly that Chan would be seen as a fish at ANY table. He's played a lot with Antonius and Ivey, some with Dwan, and probably with Galfond as well. I've watched him hold his own against Ivey, Antonius, and Brunson on HSP and/or PAD. I'm telling you: read up on him, he's a serious cash game player.
And Bobby's Room is primarily where these guys play each other, it's not like they have a rich whale show up every day. The majority of days it's just them, especially with Chip was alive. Since he died the games aren't as frequent as they used to be.
But I disagree strongly that Chan would be seen as a fish at ANY table. He's played a lot with Antonius and Ivey, some with Dwan, and probably with Galfond as well. I've watched him hold his own against Ivey, Antonius, and Brunson on HSP and/or PAD. I'm telling you: read up on him, he's a serious cash game player.
And Bobby's Room is primarily where these guys play each other, it's not like they have a rich whale show up every day. The majority of days it's just them, especially with Chip was alive. Since he died the games aren't as frequent as they used to be.
MrPokerVerse
Legend
Bronze Level
Here is Poker Hall Of Fame bio on Chan:
Johnny Chan, 2002
Johnny Chan is used to being first. The winner of back-to-back World Championships in 1987 and 1988, Johnny was also first in money won all-time at the world series of poker in 2002.
He's also the first poker-playing movie star. It was Chan, shown trapping Erik Seidel, that Matt Damon idolized in the movie, Rounders.
It may come as a surprise to some that Johnny Chan wasn't in the Poker Hall of Fame sooner. It's not an oversight. It's because Johnny is still so young. Not yet 50 years old, Chan had unusual success very early. Always known as one of the finest No-Limit Hold'em players who ever lived, Johnny Chan qualified for the Hall of Fame because he is willing to take on all comers. Chan has played in the biggest games going for the last quarter century. Nicknamed by the pundits as "The Great Wall of China" and "The Orient Express" Johnny Chan is also one of the most approachable and well-liked of former World Champions.
Lyle Berman, fellow Hall of Fame 2002 Inductee, introduced Johnny before the start of the Championship Event. He reminded the audience that Chan started playing poker at the $2/$4 level. He cautioned all players that if they couldn't beat that game, they wouldn't be able to beat $10/$20 and above. So don’t ask him for a stake.
Johnny thanked Lyle for the introduction and the Hall of Fame for the "honor." Then he told the dealers, "Shuffle up and deal."
Arguably you are never going to determine the best poker player. Why I threw out five names from different eras. Had read about Chan a few months ago, was really impressed with what he has achieved. He made my top five but could been several others as well.
Johnny Chan, 2002
Johnny Chan is used to being first. The winner of back-to-back World Championships in 1987 and 1988, Johnny was also first in money won all-time at the world series of poker in 2002.
He's also the first poker-playing movie star. It was Chan, shown trapping Erik Seidel, that Matt Damon idolized in the movie, Rounders.
It may come as a surprise to some that Johnny Chan wasn't in the Poker Hall of Fame sooner. It's not an oversight. It's because Johnny is still so young. Not yet 50 years old, Chan had unusual success very early. Always known as one of the finest No-Limit Hold'em players who ever lived, Johnny Chan qualified for the Hall of Fame because he is willing to take on all comers. Chan has played in the biggest games going for the last quarter century. Nicknamed by the pundits as "The Great Wall of China" and "The Orient Express" Johnny Chan is also one of the most approachable and well-liked of former World Champions.
Lyle Berman, fellow Hall of Fame 2002 Inductee, introduced Johnny before the start of the Championship Event. He reminded the audience that Chan started playing poker at the $2/$4 level. He cautioned all players that if they couldn't beat that game, they wouldn't be able to beat $10/$20 and above. So don’t ask him for a stake.
Johnny thanked Lyle for the introduction and the Hall of Fame for the "honor." Then he told the dealers, "Shuffle up and deal."
Arguably you are never going to determine the best poker player. Why I threw out five names from different eras. Had read about Chan a few months ago, was really impressed with what he has achieved. He made my top five but could been several others as well.
OzExorcist
Broomcorn's uncle
Bronze Level
I tend to agree, which is why I said earlier it really depends on your criteria.
Here's the thing though: no matter how many ways you want to divide it up, no matter how many categories you come up with, Ivey will be at or near the top of each of them and therein lies your answer IMO.
Seriously - how many categories can people think of where Ivey isn't at least a serious contender?
O
onemorechance
live free or die
Silver Level
J
Jason88
Rising Star
Bronze Level
Thought I was the only one who thought Stu was in another league to everybody else, absolute legend.
__________________
"You can't learn how to be funny on the table, you either have it or ya dont" - Ryan Schmitz
__________________
"You can't learn how to be funny on the table, you either have it or ya dont" - Ryan Schmitz
M
Mr Whatever
Rock Star
Silver Level
To say phil h isn’t good or doesn’t have it anymore because he plays a lot of tourns- I don’t know. there are a lot of well known poker pros especially those that are sponsored by these poker sites that play numerous tourns every yr at the wsop and barely cash for all their efforts.
last yr it was matusow with like 1 lil cash in an event but nothing else for his efforts while playing a boat load of tourns. if u think mike isnt that good a player how about allen cunningham? did any1 see allen cunningham cash in really anything this yr? or daniel in 05? but they all play a boat load of tourns during that yrs wsop. and had zippo results.
to make a final table at a wsop regardless of how many tourns u play is an awesome feat and did i mention phil has made a final table every yr since that hes played at the wsop besides 1? Ill really don’t care how many tourns hes played, most of the top tourn players still don’t make a final table or get results like phil h. maybe chris ferg that’s about it.
And for phil h being washed up?, the well know poker pros that are known as top notch holdem players arent winning bracelets in holdem – ivey, daniel, Chris Ferguson etc since moneymaker when it comes to holdem bracelets.
we have:
only Cunningham has 1 more holdem braclet than phil h and phil is tied with only 8 other ppl in holdem bracelets since Moneymaker.
Cunningham has 3 in holdem, Max p 2, dutch boyd 2, billy chen 2, jeff madsen 2, vitally lunkin 2, phil hel 2, matt keikoan 2 Praz bansi 2 and mark seif 2 since the moneymaker effect.
And I really think phil h is better than these ppl. So I don’t see how every1 has miraculously surpassed phil h in holdem. And even for allen c its only 1 more bracelet so its not a big deal. Even the top notch pros admit hes 1 of the best tourn players in the world still.
last yr it was matusow with like 1 lil cash in an event but nothing else for his efforts while playing a boat load of tourns. if u think mike isnt that good a player how about allen cunningham? did any1 see allen cunningham cash in really anything this yr? or daniel in 05? but they all play a boat load of tourns during that yrs wsop. and had zippo results.
to make a final table at a wsop regardless of how many tourns u play is an awesome feat and did i mention phil has made a final table every yr since that hes played at the wsop besides 1? Ill really don’t care how many tourns hes played, most of the top tourn players still don’t make a final table or get results like phil h. maybe chris ferg that’s about it.
And for phil h being washed up?, the well know poker pros that are known as top notch holdem players arent winning bracelets in holdem – ivey, daniel, Chris Ferguson etc since moneymaker when it comes to holdem bracelets.
we have:
only Cunningham has 1 more holdem braclet than phil h and phil is tied with only 8 other ppl in holdem bracelets since Moneymaker.
Cunningham has 3 in holdem, Max p 2, dutch boyd 2, billy chen 2, jeff madsen 2, vitally lunkin 2, phil hel 2, matt keikoan 2 Praz bansi 2 and mark seif 2 since the moneymaker effect.
And I really think phil h is better than these ppl. So I don’t see how every1 has miraculously surpassed phil h in holdem. And even for allen c its only 1 more bracelet so its not a big deal. Even the top notch pros admit hes 1 of the best tourn players in the world still.
madtom1337
Rock Star
Silver Level
Bet these guys crushed the side games in the same years they lost all those tourneys for more than they could've cashed in a tourney. Apart from Philly H
Half of it's about the side games!
dmorris68
Legend
Loyaler
I was there yesterday helping my guy Ivey out. He needed a stake. Couldn't stay long though, cuz I had to fly back in time to play the CC freeroll. Can't turn down a shot at free moniez...
Poker Orifice
FoolsTilt
Platinum Level
I forgot to mention in my post, the guy in the pic. ^, also won two events back-to-back. That's right.. back in June'08, Poker Orifice won back-to-back Railbird freerolls on the very same day!! (one on Fulltilt & the other later in the day on pokerstars).. field size was ~900 players! Now how could any of the others listed on this thread even begin to compare with that feat? (Ivey might come close)
Poker Orifice
FoolsTilt
Platinum Level
The pros you're naming seem to be mostly the well-publicized ones in the media.
In my opinion, Phil Helmuth is sooooo far behind the pack of top 'nlhe tournament' players that I wouldn't even be able to guess how far down the list he would be today. imo.. players like Daniel Kelly (djk online fame) totally blow Helmuth away. There are just sooo many nlhe tournament players who I'd say are definitely above & beyond Phil's level.
Have you seen some of the tournament HH's that have been posted online that Phil H. has played? (I'm not just talking about a few or a small handful where perhaps his 'read' was off, or a hero call gone wrong, etc.). I've seen posts with a ton of Phil H. HH's, that are laughed at by many. He was great in his day but I really think his game has been surpassed by 'many' (I would place dozens if not hundreds of tournament players ahead of Phil H. today).
nlhe tournament player doesn't make the 'best overall poker player' anyways. Just for a small example, take a look at Phil H's NoLimit cash game. It's freak'n terrible (and all of the other pros who join him on cash tables KNOW it... he's a fish by comparison). Even just on the televised cash games with Phil H. on the tables.... he's way outclassed. Daniel N. puts it to him straight up while playing PokerAfterDark - The Cash Game,... his game/style of play just doesn't work well vs. the other good cash game players (Phil.. "Keep on raising me.. yah.. that's right. I will trap you with the nuts & you will just keep on raising away getting all of your money in bad." yah.. ok Phil.. first you have to get 'the nuts' & meanwhile you're donking off in the meantime).
I like Phil H. and used to think he was a really good player (sure he's a good player... still is.. 'BUT'.. I really don't think he's even close to today's top players.... nor do the other top players out there.. especially on cash tables).
Maybe hearing other pros opinions on 'who is the best' would be more valid? Pretty sure the generall consensus is that Phil is the best... no.. not Helmuth, I'm talking 'Phil Ivey' obviously (besides myself that is).
MrPokerVerse
Legend
Bronze Level
Well that changes everything, had I known.
Original Post:
I'm giving a top five:
1. Phil Ivey
2. Stu Ungar
3. Johnny Moss
4. Doyle Brunson
5. Johnny Chan
__________________
Revised Post:
I'm giving a top six:
1. Phil Ivey
2. Stu Ungar
3. Johnny Moss
4. Doyle Brunson
5. Johnny Chan
6. Poker Orifice
__________________
For the record, that guy in the picture looks like someone I saw in Post Office under a most wanted list.
I'd say back to back at the CC freerolls is no easy task as there are some very good poker players in those. Oh wait, you said Railbirds, do those even count? lol joking
Congrats on that feat in 08 and the strong finshes in the last few here.
DINGO8MYBABY
Rock Star
Silver Level
All the old timers who played against everybody say it's Stuey, and they're probably right (they'd know), but at some point Phil Ivey has to enter the conversation. He just keeps succeeding. What's odd is that Ivey hasn't won a WSOP no limit holdem event. When he does, which is inevitable, you can bet it's going to be a big one.
OzExorcist
Broomcorn's uncle
Bronze Level
I know this is hard for some people to understand, but there's more to poker than the WSOP. Srsly.
madtom1337
Rock Star
Silver Level
+gazillion. Well PUT, you jolly good fellow!
M
Mr Whatever
Rock Star
Silver Level
which players?
which of holdem players have gone beyond phil in tourns?
in wsop only cunningham has more holdem bracelets than phil since the moneymaker effect and then phil is tied with only less than 10 ppl with 2 holdem bracelets.
i have no idea what u ppl are talking about.
which of holdem players have gone beyond phil in tourns?
in wsop only cunningham has more holdem bracelets than phil since the moneymaker effect and then phil is tied with only less than 10 ppl with 2 holdem bracelets.
i have no idea what u ppl are talking about.
M
Mr Whatever
Rock Star
Silver Level
phil plays wsop. when it comes to big time tourns wpt is coming about but the standard in tourns is still the wsop.