Advice on when to move up in limits

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nvrwin

Guest
Need advice from you guys-
OK, I'm new to online poker(been playing live games for about 2 yrs now)and signed up with royal vegas this weekend. I deposited the min. amount $20 and for fear of losing it all began playing .10/.20 pot limit tables to try and make it last. Well to my surprise I began winning some pots and aside from a few suck outs I turned it into a winning weekend. I am now up to around $80 and wondering at what point do you all think it is time to move up? The level of play at these low limits is admittedly dismal and is pretty easy money so far. I've been reading quite a few of the posts on this sight and have generally been impressed by the advice and comments so let me have it!
 
IrishDave

IrishDave

A Member
The two issues you need to deal with are size of the bankroll and your willingness to accept large swings in it. At the higher limits play *may* be better but the swings your bankroll will take are much larger. I started playing online about a year ago and quickly turned a $50 deposit into $450. Thinking I was ready, I went up in limits and was broke very quickly. In general, you need 50 to 100 times the BB as a minimum bankroll. So to play 1/2 you'd need a minimum of $100 to $200 to bring to the table. Be patient and you'll know when the time is right...
 
F Paulsson

F Paulsson

euro love
I'm a lot more conservative than that. I live by the "buy-in maximum of 10% of my bankroll" rule - and I play straight limit. Then again, to each their own. :)

--FP

(Clarification might be required: If I'm playing NL or PL, I'll buy in with whatever the maximum for the table is. When I say "maximum 10%", I mean that the maximum for the table must be less than 10% of my bankroll, not that I'd buy-in with less)
 
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nvrwin

Guest
Thanks for the post. I think I can handle the swings and the money isn't really an issue. I really just want to play for fun and maybe win a little cash along the way.
 
tenbob

tenbob

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Initially when i started playing online i started playing at limits that were way to high. Started playing 1-2$ limits with a 50doller deposit. Id suggest having at least 200 big blinds for limit holdem and more for pot limit/no limit.
So to start playing 1-2$ pot limit id recommend a bankroll of $400. Now bear in mind im a cautious player.
Sit and gos for no more than 10% of your BR and MTT for no more than 5%.
If you feel more adventourous be my guest
 
Dorkus Malorkus

Dorkus Malorkus

HELLO INTERNET
(a) Play a lot of hands, at least 10k, and see if you're a consistent winner at the limit (with the micros you don't really need 10k hands, if you're in the black and feeling confident after a couple of thousand hands, move up).

(b) Make sure you have the bankroll to support you at your new limit. Even the best players have downswings. For limit you want at least 250BBs (big bets, not big blinds), for PL/NL you want a lot more big blinds than that (dunno really, I don't pay much attention to NL ring). You can probably get away with less at the micros, but if things turn bad you must be willing to move back down.
 
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chicubs1616

Guest
This topic has been covered many times before...however here goes.

The following numbers are general guidelines, these numbers will help you maintain a bankroll if you anywhere near a decent player. Also, you should be comfortable at the level you are playing at (not nervous, etc.)

Here are the general guidelines.

For limit games, you want a bankroll of 200-300 Big Bets (to play 1/2 you want $400-$600).

For NL games you want 20 maximum buy-ins. (to play .25/.50 you want $1000 Max buy-in= $50 x 20 = $1000)

For SNGs you want 30x the buy-in (to play $11 SNGs, you want $330)

No MTT should use up more than 2% of your bankroll.

These guidelines apply to low and mid stakes poker. Success at the micro limits can easily be achieved with starting bankrolls lower than these requirements.

Basically, don't be playing with your entire bankroll at one table (or even 1/4th of it). You will NOT always win every session and your bankroll should be able to take the inevitable downswings that come with playing poker.
 
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chicubs1616

Guest
If you are focusing your poker play on MTTs, then this 2% standard applies.

Basically, don't be playing $11 MTTs with a $100 bankroll... You can play 10 $11 tournaments, cash in half of them, and still lose money...

Most people don't play enough MTTs or rely on MTTs as their main source of income, so it doesn't apply to everyone.

My bankroll is healthy enough to play the $11 MTTs, yet I don't yet feel comfortable playing above the $5.50's.
 
A

AK Slick

Guest
I don't buy that myself. $1000 to $50 NL? I think the most you need is 5 times the max. If you are a solid player, that should be enough to cover several beats. It depends on the type of player you are. If you blow through 5 times the max, you shouldn't be playing at those tables. I also do not think anyone with a $1000 bank roll would be satisfied with winning $5 pots on a $50 NL table.

I mostly play $200 NL. I usually fund an account with $500, and that's all I need. For example, I funded pokerroom with $500 on Wed, ran that to $1950 by Sunday night, had the worst session on my life last later that night, and cashed out $1250 this morning.

If I lost $500 playing $200 NL, I would need to take some time off from playing and evaluate my errors. I certainly would never need $4000 to play $200 NL, and I don't think any good player would either.
 
Crippler450

Crippler450

Guest
AK Slick said:
I don't buy that myself. $1000 to $50 NL? I think the most you need is 5 times the max. If you are a solid player, that should be enough to cover several beats. It depends on the type of player you are. If you blow through 5 times the max, you shouldn't be playing at those tables. I also do not think anyone with a $1000 bank roll would be satisfied with winning $5 pots on a $50 NL table.

I mostly play $200 NL. I usually fund an account with $500, and that's all I need. For example, I funded pokerroom with $500 on Wed, ran that to $1950 by Sunday night, had the worst session on my life last later that night, and cashed out $1250 this morning.

If I lost $500 playing $200 NL, I would need to take some time off from playing and evaluate my errors. I certainly would never need $4000 to play $200 NL, and I don't think any good player would either.

My guess is that you havent been playing long enough to run into any long stretches of bad luck. Even the best players have these streaks, meaning that we have them even more often. Check back here in a month and let me know if you still think having a $500 bankroll on $200 NL games works...I can probably guess the answer already.
 
F Paulsson

F Paulsson

euro love
Crippler450 said:
My guess is that you havent been playing long enough to run into any long stretches of bad luck. Even the best players have these streaks, meaning that we have them even more often. Check back here in a month and let me know if you still think having a $500 bankroll on $200 NL games works...I can probably guess the answer already.
I agree; having just enough for two bad beats is a dangerous way to play poker, ESPECIALLY when it's NL. Because that's all it takes: Two bad beats, and you're done playing poker. Of course, if his actual bankroll is a lot bigger than $500 (and that just happens to be the amount you transfer to the site), then that's a different matter altogether.

A passive player might survive on that money and just wait for the nut-flops, but then he'd be losing out on a lot of +EV from not playing good (but not necessarily the best possible) hands aggressively.

But to each their own. If it works for you, then kudos. But I wouldn't recommend it, myself.
 
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AK Slick

Guest
I have been playing poker for 16 years. I have been playing online for 3 years. That covers 10s of thousands of hands online. I probably average about 1500 hands a week right now, but I take time off where I may not play for a week or two.

I have run into bad periods before. You can obviously blow trough 2-3 times the max entry with suckouts or bad runs of cards. I do not think you can go through more than 5 times the max if you are a solid player. You should have some periods where you are quite profitable, so the $500 bankroll can get moved up to a higher level.

My example showed that. I had my worst session ever. I got sucked out several times, played poorly on tilt others, and couldn't hit flops. Still, I was only down $700 from my peak. That's only 3.5 times the max. So the 5 times buffer would be still adequate even if I had not run the $500 up to $1950 first.

Remember, I said it is a given that you are a solid player. I have seen guys blow through more than 5 times the max because they are far too loose. If you like 20% flush draws, engaging in coin flips, and bluffing too much, then you better have a larger bankroll. If you are solid, that's probably all you need.

Additionally, you don't have to play with the max every time. I typically join a table (regardless of limits) with 50% of the max. I will play that more loosely than normal. I will pay to see more cards. That will enable me to classify players. I am far more likely to take a beat in that opening period than later, and it won't cost as much. When I am comfortable, then I will put in the max.

Paulsson, you are correct that I keep a much larger bank roll than the $500 I put into a site. That is only 2.5 times the max, and I feel that is suffient for me. I did recommend 5 times the max for others. Of course, I know that I can access additional reserves if I needed them.
 
F Paulsson

F Paulsson

euro love
AK Slick said:
Paulsson, you are correct that I keep a much larger bank roll than the $500 I put into a site. That is only 2.5 times the max, and I feel that is suffient for me. I did recommend 5 times the max for others. Of course, I know that I can access additional reserves if I needed them.
That makes a world of difference, though. I play at limits where my on-site bankroll is a whole lot smaller than my recommended level, but if I go bust thanks to a three-day cold-card streak, I'm not out of poker business - my neteller account holds the rest of my bankroll, and is only a few clicks away.

Let me put it this way, if you ONLY had those $500, would you really sit down at a $200 table?
 
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chicubs1616

Guest
you don't have to play with the max every time. I typically join a table (regardless of limits) with 50% of the max. I will play that more loosely than normal. I will pay to see more cards. That will enable me to classify players. I am far more likely to take a beat in that opening period than later, and it won't cost as much. When I am comfortable, then I will put in the max.

I don't see why you would give yourself a disadvantage by only putting in half of the max buy-in. If you are comfortable playing 1/2 NL why wouldn't you be comfortable putting in $200 instead of $100? You have 50 more BB's if you enter with the max...

I don't see any advantage of buying in with half of the max so you can take some beats early and figuring out players as you say, thus dropping your buy-in to an even lower level.

Buy-in with the max is my advice, if you can't do that you are playing to high. Instead of buying in with $100 at 1/2, buy in for $100 at .5/1...

If you are comfortable playing 1/2 then there should be no reason to buy-in with $100 instead of $200...in my opinion.
 
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AK Slick

Guest
It's not a matter of comfort. I play higher limits than $200 frequently. It's a matter of "investing" to classify a player. Most players do not switch gears even though they know they should. They play the same cards and situations in the same way. I am willing to call more loosely to get some good notes on players. It will more than pay off later.

Let's say a draw situation is up and I think I am the favorite right now. I want to know if this guy likes to draw. If so, how much does it take to get him off a draw. I am not going to worry the least about blowing $100 at the start of a game to find this out. I may bet an amount that a good player would not call, but that a loose player might. I may take a beat on this hand but I know some valuable things.

Conversely, I may draw myself since I can only loose $100. Players typically classify other players only in the very begining. So if someone sees me make some loose calls or other bad plays, they think I am like that all the time. That is fine with me! I can then change gears and get looser calls from them in the future. I can then represent a flush or a straight that hit when I think they do not have that beat.
 
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chicubs1616

Guest
Players typically classify other players only in the very begining. So if someone sees me make some loose calls or other bad plays, they think I am like that all the time.

Couldn't they be doing the same thing to you???
 
N

nvrwin

Guest
I would like to thank you guys for all of the posts. Just to give an update, I continued playing low limit until last night when I finally decided that my bankroll permitted moving up to .10/.20 no limit. What a difference! I doubled the $20 I entered the room with in a matter of half an hour. The play here was really loose and I just sat back and waited to pick a good spot. Thanks again for all the advice!
 
A

AK Slick

Guest
Congratulations. That is the best method to use when playing against very loose/aggressive players. Eventually, they make a move at a pot where you have a great hand.
 
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