K
Kekule
Enthusiast
Silver Level
Cuz A9 vs. AK never happens....
And yeah, straights happen less frequently. But this is no limit. We make WAY more with a straight than we do middle pair. Typically when middle pair goes to showdown, it's a money loser in no limit. When you flop 28J with A8, you're just hoping to play the tiniest pot possible.
Making hands that are really strong but infrequent is really profitable as long as you don't have to pay too much to make them and you can get paid when you hit. Think how profitable it is to flop sets.
If you're playing limit poker, this doesn't apply since it's much cheaper to reach showdown and you can't bet huge when you make monster hands. So A9 is better than A2.
Yea, but everything you just said equally applies to A5 with a flop of 25J.
The difference lies in the better kicker of A6-A9. As the TC said, hitting two pair with A6-A9 means more and is a stronger scenario than with A2-A5. The reason being if you have A2s and the flop comes A25, you could be up against someone with the wheel straight or drawing into it. Furthermore, even if YOU are the one with the wheel straight (say A2 on a board of 3456Q) all it takes is someone with a measly 7 to break you.
I agree with TC. A2-A5 sound better on paper, but A6-A9s are superior in practice.
Now, I think there needs to be a disclaimer in general about the wheel straight too. Unless there are 4 cards to it on the board (2345 typically), how often do you actually see someone hit this when playing? Practically never. That's because nearly nobody is playing 23, 45, 52, etc...
c9h13no3
Is drawing with AK
Silver Level
1) The kicker rarely comes into play. A kicker 9 or less is essentially just bad, and I'd call them all top pair no kicker. A2 vs A6 results in mostly ties when there's an ace on the flop.
ProPokerTools Hold'em Simulation
600,000 trials (Randomized)
board: A**
A2 41.75% (107,356 wins, 286,345 ties)
A6 58.25% (206,299 wins, 286,345 ties)
2) Two pair vs. two pair is not a common scenario. This isn't Omaha.
3) Straights with 4 cards on the board aren't getting you paid whether you have A9 on a 5678 board or A2 on a 3456 board. You're playing the connectivity to flop things like a gutshot and an over (to semi-bluff with), or to make straights with both your hole cards.
atlantafalcons0
Legend
Silver Level
Are we up against pkt 4's in each scenario?
D
DunningKruger
Legend
Silver Level
So you're asking if we'd rather have the 2nd nuts on a board where all kinds of overpairs, sets, combo draws, 2 pair hands etc are going to be getting money in bad, or 2 pair on a dry A high board where we can potentially get paid by big aces or A4 both of which we block... where almost everything except the sets that crush us is liable to shut down unless they think we're FOS. I'll often take A9 over 44 on an A49 board, but switching out A4 for A9 in preflop raising or calling ranges doesn't have the same boost to our overall equity on the latter board that playing a A2s to A5s hand benefits us on the first board. The main thing is flopping enough equity enough of the time then you can bet, double, and even triple more than once in a blue moon on either flop and on most run outs. It's one of the big reasons I raise all pairs under the gun in 6max play.
I refrained from posting in this topic until now because I couldn't tell if you were trying to understand why A5 type hands are valued as much as or moreso than an A8 or A9 in constructing full stack preflop hand ranges, or if you were telling everyone that it's wrong and players shouldn't actually be doing that. In either case, you're overstating the difference in kicker between A5s and A9s. If your opponent is playing all of his A7o combos or w/e then sure you make adjustments but most players don't actually do that as a general rule. There is a time and place for A9 (the shallower stacks become or in a broader sense the weaker the average hand that makes showdown gets, the more you're going to like A9s over A5s) but you should understand why you're playing it. It's really not to try and hit A high boards against other hands with aces and either hope our blah kicker wins us the pot or suck out with 2 pair against hands that dominate us.
K
Kekule
Enthusiast
Silver Level
No one ever said anything about 2 pair vs. 2 pair.
The question is would you rather have A2 with 2 pair on a board of A23 or 2 pair with A9 on a board of A89?
atlantafalcons0
Legend
Silver Level
That is an unfair comparison since the A23 board has a straight available to the villain. A better comparison would be A2 on a A72 board. I like the ability to flop a straight and get paid off by a set.
Thinker_145
Visionary
Silver Level
What about paying off bigger straights? A2 and A5 are the most dangerous ones in this case as people do play 56 and 67.
Not to mention Ax hands have the least probability of flopping a straight of all hands. A straight draw is pretty much useless since its a gutshot to a non nut hand.
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W
Weisssound
Rock Star
Silver Level
Playability. It's not just about your made hands but about what kind of equity you may pick up along the way. And what you can rep.
That said "better" is very relative.
I would prefer to balance my 3-betting range with A9s/ATs/AJs than with A4s.
That said "better" is very relative.
I would prefer to balance my 3-betting range with A9s/ATs/AJs than with A4s.
K
Kekule
Enthusiast
Silver Level
No it is not an unfair comparison. I specifically chose the board of A23 for that very reason. That is the whole point.
When you hit two pair with A9, there is no possible way for someone to have flopped a straight. And there are significantly fewer possibilities for straight draws as well. The same cannot be said for hitting two pair with A2-A5.
One of the TC's main points, which is also the point I am trying to make, is that hitting 2 pair with A6-A9 puts you in a significantly stronger position than hitting 2 pair with A2-A5. And, I'm not talking about simply having a higher 2 pair either. The board possibilities are what are important.