Two Pair vs. Top Pair

[t1riel]

I recently discovered that it's hard to get a player who is holding Top pair to fold while you're holding the lower two pair. While you're ahead right now, you don't want them to pair their kicker to have a higher two pair. Let me give you an example of what I mean. This example hand really happened (to me, no less0 This is actually part Hand Analysis, part Poker Stragedy so bear with me.
The blinds are 10/20. I'm the Big Blind. I'm dealt . Four players call the Big BLind and I check. The flop comes:
.

Small Blind Checks. I raise 500. The next player (let's call her Player A) calls, everyone else folds. The turn is:

I bet another 300, she calls. The river:


I bet 700, she goes all in. She was short stacked and I thought about it for a while. I called. She had:
.

Now, I know why she called me. She had top pair. It seemed that no matter how much I bet, she wouldn't fold. Now, she may be that kind of player. But, there are situations where you have lower two pair and you really don't want to slowplay them. Players with top pair won't fold easily, if at all. What do you think is the best stragedy when you hit lower two pair and you're convinced the player has top pair?

 

[tenbob]

Good question T1. When i flop 2 pair, any 2 pair on a non-threatening flop i will be it aggressively to the extreme, especially my opponent is a solid player and is worried about his kicker or a set. But unfortunately for the rest of us a lot of lesser skilled players will not let go of top-pair for love or money, just get your chips into the pot when your in the lead and let the cards decide the rest.

 

[robwhufc]

2 pair is a killer - that's probably the biggest loser for me. You were 73% post flop, probably less than you thought? Just a horrible hand - wild over bet, crazy call, just horrible!

 

[shwingzilla]

Well if you're talking about someone who's playing Jack six unsuited, top pair is the vast majority of the time the very best they can hope for.

 

[ChuckTs]

yeah im sorry but this whole hand is crazy

you were lucky enough to have him call (rather moronically) a 500 chip bet in an unraised pot...but then on the turn let up - keep pushing!

were the blinds really 10/20 and not 100/200?

 

[ChuckTs]

i agree

great input buddy!

 

[Alon Ipser]

Doyle Brunson says he's got broke more times with bottom 2 pair than any other hand and you need to be cautious when you flop bottom 2 pair.

 

[joosebuck]

especially with a quick call of an unraised pot.

in a live tourney this week I played 45s from the BB, flop was 457, i bet the pot as the BB, mp guy called it, button went all in trying to take it down, i knew he had overs (and he did). i called, and the guy behind me immediately called.

he flipped over 77 :'(. i might have put her on JJ QQ KK AA if i didn't know that she was a fish

 

[Mad_Mike989]

Well if you're talking about someone who's playing Jack six unsuited, top pair is the vast majority of the time the very best they can hope for.

Shwingzilla's right. If this player will play J6 off this early, then they are gonna get a little lucky but idiots like this (and I am one so I know) are esentially dead money to a good player.

 

[twizzybop]

Now being that you bet and per say I was holding J,6.. My thought would be 1st that you have a much higher kicker then my 6 and 2nd that your kicker hand paired which you may also have J,10.

With the low blinds and a limp in.. losing 20 in chips with such a weak hand as J,6 with nothing helping me on the flop. I wouldn't have fought at all for such a weak/small pot.

 

[zinzan1000]

Now being that you bet and per say I was holding J,6.. My thought would be 1st that you have a much higher kicker then my 6 and 2nd that your kicker hand paired which you may also have J,10.

With the low blinds and a limp in.. losing 20 in chips with such a weak hand as J,6 with nothing helping me on the flop. I wouldn't have fought at all for such a weak/small pot.

Limping in, i smell smoke.

 

[twizzybop]

Limping in, i smell smoke.

You actually don't know me then. Limping in with the same hands time and time again, one becomes predictable. So tossing in the J,6 on rare occasion you are mixing up. Good smoke screen when people are paying attention to your style.

 

[bigjenna4155]

Well i think that was great play but you just got unlucky(or she got lucky) i would have done exactly the same thing

 

[joosebuck]

this thread is over a year old???????

 

[jayneseo]

Bump

 

[Lafaena]

lafaena

thats just bad luck. fish are gonna draw out, thats why they are fish.

 

[baloney]

I would suspect that they had top two pair on this flop anyway with 4 limpers ahead of me. And it really isnt worth continuing if they push on the river because I believe top pair with a big kicker would have raised it up preflop. They obviously sucked out, or you were never ahead to begin with.