Tough spot with KK on Ace river and 3 to flush board

quick

quick

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On Bovada, villain just sat down so no stats on them. Both villian and I are playing 200bb+ stacks. Thoughts on possible hands villain had with their river shove and what our move should be?



IPoker, $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 8 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

SB: $5.17 (51.7 bb)
BB: $3.01 (30.1 bb)
UTG+2: $6.06 (60.6 bb)
MP1: $22.92 (229.2 bb)
MP2: $2.55 (25.5 bb)
MP3: $13.45 (134.5 bb)
Hero (CO): $25 (250 bb)
BTN: $14.44 (144.4 bb)

Preflop: Hero is CO with K
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K
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UTG+2 calls $0.10, MP1 calls $0.10, 2 folds, Hero raises to $0.65, BTN calls $0.65, SB calls $0.60, 2 folds, MP1 calls $0.55

Flop: ($2.80) 8
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J
club4.gif
9
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(4 players)
SB checks, MP1 bets $1.40, Hero raises to $4.36, 2 folds, MP1 calls $2.96

Turn: ($11.52) 2
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(2 players)
MP1 checks, Hero bets $6.13, MP1 calls $6.13

River: ($23.78) A
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(2 players)
MP1 bets $11.78 and is all-in

Final Board: 8
spade4.gif
J
club4.gif
9
heart4.gif
2
spade4.gif
A
spade4.gif


Hero?
 
Andrew Popov

Andrew Popov

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Hero - fold!


all-in after ace on the river is not necessarily a bluff. Any villain in the range has a lot of hands Axs (including A9c and even more AJs and even AJo). it's not even talking about the pocket pair in the set ... The correct decision is fold.
 
Limited_Al

Limited_Al

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I would have checked behind on the turn. There are too many outs for your opponent, and you only have an over pair. When the ace came on the river, I would have check folded. It’s a terrible board, but unlucky for kings.

You’re better up to the turn was correct imo.
 
quick

quick

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Hero - fold!


all-in after ace on the river is not necessarily a bluff. Any villain in the range has a lot of hands Axs (including A9c and even more AJs and even AJo). it's not even talking about the pocket pair in the set ... The correct decision is fold.


Thanks, I def considered villian to have something like AJ (given they called our raise pre and didn't try to make it a bigger bet pre) and really a missed draw shove (which we see sometimes) didn't make sense since the only real "draw" technically did complete on river (flush). Then again I've also seen players flop trips or 2 pair on these boards oblivious to any possible draws/stronger hands and follow similar lines. I think you're correct here that AJ is likely.


I would have checked behind on the turn. There are too many outs for your opponent, and you only have an over pair. When the ace came on the river, I would have check folded. It’s a terrible board, but unlucky for kings.

You’re better up to the turn was correct imo.


Thanks, I'm not sure what "better up to the turn" means though?



As for the Ace on the river, had it been any other non-spade and they shove? What's your move? Insta call ?


SPOILER: Hero tanked for entire time bank and folded, villian mucked.
 
Limited_Al

Limited_Al

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Sorry, I meant to say your betting up to the turn was correct IMO. Damned texting auto correct! Haha

I think I’d still fold the shove. He could have flopped a set, two pair, anything. I don’t really value an overpair on showdown.


Take what I say with a pinch of salt though... I’ve only been playing for a year on/ off so certainly aren’t considered to be pro!
 
Shrops

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Tough spot

Anytime I have KK's and a A shows up I don't like it. Add a possible flush and it is not good at all. If they bet big I would have to give it up and fold.
 
S

Smokewood

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Call the bet.
I think he has a busted straight draw.
 
Alucard

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Forget the river, I don't quite understand what you are doing flop & turn tbh.We have an overpair on a 4way very wettish flop. And facing a decent size donk.
3x raise on flop & 60BB bet on turn - what would be his calling range?
This seems very wasteful to me under above conditions.

And on river a shit ton of hands beats us.

calling flop, checking back turn & folding river probably unless I have decent reads.Even if I raise flop I'm taking a bit smaller sizing & if he calls, checking back turn to pot control likely.
 
WabiSabi

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I don't like raising the flop its about as bad as it gets for an over pair. I agree with the above poster to call the flop and call or check back the turn and try and get your hand to showdown.If villain bombs the turn i would make a decent case for just folding the turn. As played the rivers a fold imo.
 
D

DeadRev

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Fold, unless villain is a maniac the board so wet you don’t beat any value hands. Sometimes You gotta sigh and fold.
 
luiaguila

luiaguila

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in these levels they always play more loose than I can tell you that he has an ace I'll tell you that it's a lie. Most likely it's a 10Q and I casually hit his ladder on the flop when he saw that there were no color chances or anything that could do lose simply became a player who called everything and it is impossible to be a bluff of him, AJ is also a lie so he would have been an attacker and not a callstation since he would have put him in danger by having that pair and unfortunately we will never know that he had remember to attack strong is not always the best option remember always analyze the flop and the chances of your opponents thanks to your initial bet and seeing that A forces you more your initial bet he saw you as a balloon and He said that hibas to pay anything but you did not pay that is the best
 
quick

quick

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Anytime I have KK's and a A shows up I don't like it. Add a possible flush and it is not good at all. If they bet big I would have to give it up and fold.


Which is what I'm afraid off, the amount of bluff/shove rivers on Bovada is pretty wild.


Sorry, I meant to say your betting up to the turn was correct IMO. Damned texting auto correct! Haha

I think I’d still fold the shove. He could have flopped a set, two pair, anything. I don’t really value an overpair on showdown.


Take what I say with a pinch of salt though... I’ve only been playing for a year on/ off so certainly aren’t considered to be pro!


Thanks for clarifying.


Call the bet.
I think he has a busted straight draw.


Sometimes they do, I've been bluffed off more than I care to admit on Bovada. But often they either flop like a set or 2P here or just donk call/raise every street with a draw and get there.


Forget the river, I don't quite understand what you are doing flop & turn tbh.We have an overpair on a 4way very wettish flop. And facing a decent size donk.
3x raise on flop & 60BB bet on turn - what would be his calling range?
This seems very wasteful to me under above conditions.

And on river a shit ton of hands beats us.

calling flop, checking back turn & folding river probably unless I have decent reads.Even if I raise flop I'm taking a bit smaller sizing & if he calls, checking back turn to pot control likely.


Thanks but this seems a bit passive of a play. Why give away a free card on turn? Def not doing that on a flush draw board, so many players on Bovada will call any bets to chase. I've had players call 2x pot size bets on flop AND turn to get there on the river. And I've had players raise their flush draws and get there. No way giving up a free river card in these spots against these players.





I don't like raising the flop its about as bad as it gets for an over pair. I agree with the above poster to call the flop and call or check back the turn and try and get your hand to showdown.If villain bombs the turn i would make a decent case for just folding the turn. As played the rivers a fold imo.


On this board against a villian who calls your PFR raise I think the raise on flop is fine,unless worried about a set mine which if that's the case then GG. Actually I think if we had bombed the turn we could have taken down the pot.





Fold, unless villain is a maniac the board so wet you don’t beat any value hands. Sometimes You gotta sigh and fold.


Yeah I sigh folded , players so unpredictable on Bovada.


I was wrong.
He has trips or two pair.

My biggest leak is I think people are always bluffing on river.


Which oddly they do still.


in these levels they always play more loose than I can tell you that he has an ace I'll tell you that it's a lie. Most likely it's a 10Q and I casually hit his ladder on the flop when he saw that there were no color chances or anything that could do lose simply became a player who called everything and it is impossible to be a bluff of him, AJ is also a lie so he would have been an attacker and not a callstation since he would have put him in danger by having that pair and unfortunately we will never know that he had remember to attack strong is not always the best option remember always analyze the flop and the chances of your opponents thanks to your initial bet and seeing that A forces you more your initial bet he saw you as a balloon and He said that hibas to pay anything but you did not pay that is the best


Yeah it's tough sometimes on Bovada they show down with flopped trips or 2 pair but seem oblivious to the board or they'll call any bets and suck out the river. Or they'll check check SHOVE and you're left wondering. And don't doubt the players that happily call down with hands like J10 on these flops lol.
 
quick

quick

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Anytime I have KK's and a A shows up I don't like it. Add a possible flush and it is not good at all. If they bet big I would have to give it up and fold.


Which is what I'm afraid off, the amount of bluff/shove rivers on Bovada is pretty wild.


Sorry, I meant to say your betting up to the turn was correct IMO. Damned texting auto correct! Haha

I think I’d still fold the shove. He could have flopped a set, two pair, anything. I don’t really value an overpair on showdown.


Take what I say with a pinch of salt though... I’ve only been playing for a year on/ off so certainly aren’t considered to be pro!


Thanks for clarifying.


Call the bet.
I think he has a busted straight draw.


Sometimes they do, I've been bluffed off more than I care to admit on Bovada. But often they either flop like a set or 2P here or just donk call/raise every street with a draw and get there.


Forget the river, I don't quite understand what you are doing flop & turn tbh.We have an overpair on a 4way very wettish flop. And facing a decent size donk.
3x raise on flop & 60BB bet on turn - what would be his calling range?
This seems very wasteful to me under above conditions.

And on river a shit ton of hands beats us.

calling flop, checking back turn & folding river probably unless I have decent reads.Even if I raise flop I'm taking a bit smaller sizing & if he calls, checking back turn to pot control likely.


Thanks but this seems a bit passive of a play. Why give away a free card on turn? Def not doing that on a flush draw board, so many players on Bovada will call any bets to chase. I've had players call 2x pot size bets on flop AND turn to get there on the river. And I've had players raise their flush draws and get there. No way giving up a free river card in these spots against these players.





I don't like raising the flop its about as bad as it gets for an over pair. I agree with the above poster to call the flop and call or check back the turn and try and get your hand to showdown.If villain bombs the turn i would make a decent case for just folding the turn. As played the rivers a fold imo.


On this board against a villian who calls your PFR raise I think the raise on flop is fine,unless worried about a set mine which if that's the case then GG. Actually I think if we had bombed the turn we could have taken down the pot.





Fold, unless villain is a maniac the board so wet you don’t beat any value hands. Sometimes You gotta sigh and fold.


Yeah I sigh folded , players so unpredictable on Bovada.


I was wrong.
He has trips or two pair.

My biggest leak is I think people are always bluffing on river.


Which oddly they do still.


in these levels they always play more loose than I can tell you that he has an ace I'll tell you that it's a lie. Most likely it's a 10Q and I casually hit his ladder on the flop when he saw that there were no color chances or anything that could do lose simply became a player who called everything and it is impossible to be a bluff of him, AJ is also a lie so he would have been an attacker and not a callstation since he would have put him in danger by having that pair and unfortunately we will never know that he had remember to attack strong is not always the best option remember always analyze the flop and the chances of your opponents thanks to your initial bet and seeing that A forces you more your initial bet he saw you as a balloon and He said that hibas to pay anything but you did not pay that is the best


Yeah it's tough sometimes on Bovada they show down with flopped trips or 2 pair but seem oblivious to the board or they'll call any bets and suck out the river. Or they'll check check SHOVE and you're left wondering. And don't doubt the players that happily call down with hands like J10 on these flops lol.
 
C

CryptoBlood

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Huh having KK and lossing with it looks so painful but there is good chance to win against KK if you are lucky and smart player.
 
kraemer

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I think it is correct to fold because You are beaten by
too many possible hands...


On the other hand I have won some nice pots in the last
days by stopping to give my opponents respec for their
bets... I was surprised how many big river bets are made
with small pocket pairs that only beat high card and stuff
like that... But that was freeroll play... In a cash game I would
tend to give my opponents a bit more respect unless I have a
HUD that shows me I don't have to or I got a decent read...
 
WabiSabi

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On this board against a villian who calls your PFR raise I think the raise on flop is fine,unless worried about a set mine which if that's the case then GG. Actually I think if we had bombed the turn we could have taken down the pot.

It's not just set mines they can also have QT T7 J9 J8 98 .I just wouldn't be bloating the pot for me this is a spot we want to try and keep the pot as small as possible and get to showdown.
 
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