should you change your style of play in rebuy tournaments?

[Dr_Dick]

Vanquish,

I think where we really tend to disagree is you are saying "a lot" of players are successful by employing the strategy. I on the other hand believe the vast majority of players are not successful. I will concede if you have the skills of Negreanu then contributing in the rebuy period is not a big deal. Tiger Woods can give me 15 strokes up front and still be confident that if he plays me one handed and blindfolded he is still going to make up the difference. But there is a huge difference between Negreanu/Woods and the average player. The OP is asking what he should do and I don't suggest he start going crazy in the rebuy period. I would suggest he stay selective but realize he will have to take some flips, don't fold because players are pushing all-in.

Oz,

I based my initial response on your post. You had a number of good points supporting the strategy and I offer a counter opinion. Given how loose everyone is in a rebuy, being selective before you push or call a push is IMO a better strategy. Given it is online there is no reason to be impatient, you can IMO allow others to put the chips in for you. If they are pushing dark even better.

I don't know where you interpret Van as saying Negreanu has a "reason" for pushing in dark, he just says that is what Negreanu has been known to do. Van also claims the experts shove every hand, and while granted that would be fun to see it is just not the case. I could see ten way action one day as everyone shoves dark because it is a rebuy, woohoo!

I understand the strategy, I understand what the great players do, but I also understand the majority of players are not great. IMO, there is no reason not to be selective and no reason for me to contribute more to the prize pool when there are more than enough other players willing to do it for me.

 

[vanquish]

I don't know where you interpret Van as saying Negreanu has a "reason" for pushing in dark, he just says that is what Negreanu has been known to do. Van also claims the experts shove every hand, and while granted that would be fun to see it is just not the case. I could see ten way action one day as everyone shoves dark because it is a rebuy, woohoo!

it's all in this thread. you don't have to believe it, but listen to all the pokercasts and the one that talks about the $1k+r will tell you exactly what i said about negreanu shoving in the dark and why, and good players (successfully) shoving every hand during rebuy periods online. if you don't want to believe me, you might believe some radio hosts.

fwiw, many, MANY rebuy experts shove every hand during the rebuy period.

search for sorel, shaundeeb, bakes. all of these people make multiple hundreds of thousands of dollars a year playing solely MTTs and employ this strategy in rebuys. there are plenty of others whom i can't name aorn, you're seriously just ignoring facts by implying that only negreanu does it successfully with your tiger woods analogy.


also if you understand the strategy, like you just claimed you do, how can you say it's a bad strategy and advise people against rebuying when its obviously what works for great players? and don't give me the BS that "well we aren't negreanu, so we will fail to use his strategies." just because you don't have confidence in your game is no reason for you to tell people to stick to ABC poker when other strategies are obviously available.

 

[Ronaldadio]

vanquish, I think u r trying to defend your way of playing. I can find lots of other pros that will go the other way.

Most of the time, and I say `most` of the time, I will tighten up in early position more than normal, playing more hand as my position improves - nothing different from how most of us play normally.

I don`t have any stats to back up how the rest of the World plays, but I do know my own MTT rebuy stats. I`m well ahead of the game YTD (wish I could stop playing SNG`s, but thats another story

There is merit in playing both ways IMO.

It is hard playing tighter but I know it works for me. If u sit there watching someone push every hand, and to make matters worse, then catch the miracle cards, u feel like pulling your hair out - even when u were not in the pot !!!

What I do to counter this frustration is go onto Official Poker Rankings - Poker Ratings, Poker Results and Statistics find out they are a losing player, and wait for the mistake

 

[vanquish]

There is merit in playing both ways IMO.

^ this is all i needed to hear

 

[Inscore77]

Van is right.

Neither idea is bad, but why should you constantly wait for premium hands during the rebuy period? You can make so many chips by using the strategy van is giving. You can also go bust, but IT'S A REBUY(in case you dont know what that means, you can pay another buy-in to get another stack)

Personally, I don't use the strategy all the time, about 50/50. I've placed deep in the $3r and $5r on Stars by using the real laggish push strategy during the rebuy period, and also without. I placed 2nd in a $1 rebuy on Full Tilt by using the strategy, so do not say there is nothing to it

 

[mickyb]

The odds of you managing to use one buy in and actually going deep into a rebuy is slim to none. You have to get lucky and double twice in order to get 6000 whereas you only have to get lucky and double once if you rebought at the start.

Let's look at this from the point of view of whether to rebuy to double your initial stack.

Given your statement that someone has very little chance of making the prizes on their initial starting stack, you seem to be suggesting that your second lot of 1500 chips is more valuable than your first lot.

If we look out how people view freezeouts, there are some who are happy to take coinflips early on, and there are some that aren't. I haven't heard of any who advocate playing wildly because, without doubling up early, you don't have much chance of making the prizes!

In both freezeouts and rebuys, doubling your stack doesn't quite double your equity. Assuming all players are the same standard, you are twice as likely to win, but perhaps only 80% more likely to make the prizes.

Playing aggressively at rebuys will only increase your $EV if you are a fair bit better than the field.

Say your buy-in is $10+$1. You are better than the field, so this initial buy-in gives you a $EV of $16. Your second buy-in isn't worth as much to you, but it's still worth more than $10, because you are still better than the field - perhaps it's worth $15 to you.

Doubling up now might increase your $EV from $31 to $58 - again, the later chips are worth less to you. So if you get in a coin-flip situation, you are happy - if you win you gain $27 of equity, whereas if you lose it will only cost you $20 to rebuy "$31 worth" of chips.

I guess, if you know your ROI over a long period in MTTs, you can probably work out just how aggressive you should be in the early stages of rebuys. It needs to be about 200% before you should be okay with having an early all-in with one overcard against a pair.

 

[Ronaldadio]

Van is right.

Neither idea is bad, but why should you constantly wait for premium hands during the rebuy period? You can make so many chips by using the strategy van is giving. You can also go bust, but IT'S A REBUY(in case you dont know what that means, you can pay another buy-in to get another stack)

Personally, I don't use the strategy all the time, about 50/50. I've placed deep in the $3r and $5r on Stars by using the real laggish push strategy during the rebuy period, and also without. I placed 2nd in a $1 rebuy on Full Tilt by using the strategy, so do not say there is nothing to it

Van agreed with what I said, btw, that being that both ways have merit.

What I`m saying is that I don`t feel pushing blind in a rebuy is the correct way.

If it was not a rebuy and early on I would probably fold a 50/50.

In a rebuy, I probably would not.

What some people are saying here, that I disagree with, is that u should look to push even if you are only a 5% fav pre flop. This has to be a negative EV, but I might be wrong.

 

[Inscore77]

Van agreed with what I said, btw, that being that both ways have merit.

What I`m saying is that I don`t feel pushing blind in a rebuy is the correct way.

If it was not a rebuy and early on I would probably fold a 50/50.

In a rebuy, I probably would not.

What some people are saying here, that I disagree with, is that u should look to push even if you are only a 5% fav pre flop. This has to be a negative EV, but I might be wrong.

I was reffering to somebody else in my post, not you. Also, all I am doing is saying that both ways are good as well. I've accumulated monster stacks by doing both, either pushing with crap and hitting big or waiting for other pushers to push into my monsters. I guess it really just depends on what the person prefers to do. If they have enough of a bankroll to support a rebuy to start, a double rebuy if they get stacked, and an add-on, but not enough for countless rebuys, they should play semi-tight. If they have enough for a million rebuys and it wont even begin to damage their roll, they'll play the extremely loose strategy