Returning to micros after 3 years - struggling a bit

[richkillian]

Things went south quickly on my last session. I had 3 hands where I had high sets on dry flops, bet hard on the flop, turn would give someone a straight draw, bet hard obviously, river would complete the straight draw, bet (I still have a huge amount of hands beat) and get called.

All 3 hands, I was playing against fish who had air on the flop, then a gutshot straight draw on the turn, and then hit their gut shot on the river.

Then I had another hand where I flopped a king high flush on an unpaired flop (A,9,2). Fish bets, I raise, he raises, I shove and we go all in on the flop. He has top pair (A) Jack kicker. Turn is a 9, river is a A. Him getting a full house sucked, that was a 150bb stack.

Plenty of coolers too, I was on the wrong end of all of them. I'm running 4 or 5 buy ins under all in EV at the moment. The 5NL shot is still just about alive (5 buy ins left) but this has been brutal. The only consultation is that I feel like I've been playing really well, I could easily be doing extremely well by this point. I'm controlling tilt a lot better too, a few years ago if this happened to me I'd be spewing.

Poker is the most love hate relationship in the world.

(I don't expect anyone to reply, I find it helpful just to rant, my girlfriend is sick of hearing it!!!)

 

[PaxMundi]

Many a mouse and keyboard have succumb to my tilt over the years.It can be pretty devastating at times when your going through a very extreme downswing.And at times has you doubting whether you can even play the game or not.You just got to hang in there and ride it out things will eventually swing back in you favor if your making good decisions.

 

[richkillian]

Thanks for the encouragement MettaGame, you pretty much hit the nail on the head. Shot is almost over, running about $25 under all in EV - this is nothing though compared to how many times I've been screwed on the river and not been all in. I think the best thing to do for my game now is to take a break for a week or two.

 

[Joshua_Kane]

The stakes shouldn't affect your decisions it's 100bb whatever the stakes.I'm perfectly happy playing anything from 2nl to 100nl.And i often only deposit a bankroll for 4nl on a new site and i actually enjoy the process of building through the stakes.But then i play as a hobby and not as a profession.But a novice starting at 25nl is a recipe for disaster for them.

I completely agree with you, WabiSabi. I think beginning players starting at 25nl are just asking to lose their bankroll.

 

[Joshua_Kane]

Just a quick update on this, after 15k hands of not getting paid off at all I played a 2k hands session last night where I kept stacking people. Winrate is back up to something relatively acceptable and I'm now rolled for NL5 so will move up tonight. I guess I just forgot how much of an absolute beast variance can be during my break from poker.

Judging from everything you said in your first post I figured you’d bounce back soon enough.

As for a book recommendation though, I definitely recommend Jared Tendler’s The Mental Game of Poker. His strategies for dealing with tilt have have helped me quite a bit through my times of variance.

 

[nml]

Thanks for the encouragement MettaGame, you pretty much hit the nail on the head. Shot is almost over, running about $25 under all in EV - this is nothing though compared to how many times I've been screwed on the river and not been all in. I think the best thing to do for my game now is to take a break for a week or two.

Sorry for the rookie question but what is this chart you’ve posted? EV vs actual? What sort of software are you using for this?

I play micro’s myself but only use hold em tracker for record keeping

 

[kratos]

A master back! Be welcome back master.Hope to learn with you on the tables and with your posts.Here at CC are lots of sharks from the whole world.Cardschat is an ocean with sharks from everywhere..

 

[richkillian]

Thanks, I'm going to check out his book once I've finished reading blackrain's modern small stakes book (it's very good, I'd definitely recommend it. The preflop strategy I already used but postflop I am learning a lot).

So my first 15k hands at 5NL zoom have gone terribly. I have never run this bad, I have started to tilt at times but not as bad or as for long as I used to. I'm good at taking a break whenever I get a couple of suck outs/coolers in quick succession.

One thing I find harder about 6 max 5NL zoom is that it's hard to pot control. The better players see checking a street as weakness and will pounce on you. It puts you in some very tough spots. Far more often the better regs are playing for stacks with hands ranging from the nuts to missed draws (air). I've been floating people more myself, but it's definitely annoying when it happens to you.

It's very hard to determine whether I'm break even, winning or losing at these stakes when I'm running so poorly. $30 below EV now, but that only tells half the story. I'm looking forward to the time when I run super above EV for 15k hands, but it's never happened ever to me before.

 

[elflake]

Feel you

I'm just back to poker after a 9 year break. I played for a living 2003-09, $200-400 tables, and did quite well. I just had a catastrophic knee injury and thought I would play some while laid up. I won a little in freerolls and started playing the micro cash games. They are brutal - harder to beat than high stakes games. I have had wild swings, thought I had it figured out, and then spiral down. I think the money not meaning anything has a lot to do with it, and people make horrible calls and play anything preflop. It's walking through minefields, never knowing where you are, because someone re-raised preflop with 7-4. I haven't figured out how to beat the microstakes games : they seem like a completely different game than what I used to play. I know that if I was serious about playing again I would be better off depositing and playing higher stakes, but I'm committed to beating these low stakes games now, just as a matter of pride and principle, and just cos it's something to do. I've done it before, starting with freerolls at ACR in 2002 that I turned into a real bankroll.

 

[Smokewood]

Thanks for the encouragement MettaGame, you pretty much hit the nail on the head. Shot is almost over, running about $25 under all in EV - this is nothing though compared to how many times I've been screwed on the river and not been all in. I think the best thing to do for my game now is to take a break for a week or two.

BS - you need to move UP in stakes...
At the micros you CANNOT make moves on people, you cannot bluff, and you must play as a NIT. If you do this you will slowly build your bankroll - but it is a waste of time.

Just jump up to 25NL or higher and give it a shot. At this level you CAN make moves and bluff.

 

[Poker Orifice]

Zoom is much harder than regular tables as it attracts all the regs and grinders.I find 6 max regular tables very easy to beat in the micros on any site.

Yup. ZOOM, FastForward, SPEED tables are definitely much tougher (far more aggressive game, LOTS of regulars, Lots of 3-betting, etc.). It's a bad choice for someone just getting back into it.

And definitely the games are getting tougher all the time. There are many more micro stakes (European) grinders online these days... especially during daytime hours in Europe.

 

[Poker Orifice]

BS - you need to move UP in stakes...
At the micros you CANNOT make moves on people, you cannot bluff, and you must play as a NIT. If you do this you will slowly build your bankroll - but it is a waste of time.

Just jump up to 25NL or higher and give it a shot. At this level you CAN make moves and bluff.

Terrible advice!

 

[Smokewood]

Terrible advice!

If you say so...

In my experience the micros are tougher than the mid stakes.

 

[PaxMundi]

No stakes are a waste of time.I'm currently building from 5nl again on a new site party poker which i have never played before.That's the way i enjoy doing it although i can afford to bankroll my self for much higher stakes i choose to build this way because i enjoy the process.But 2nl/5nl for a beginner can be a very important steps every stage is an important step in the learning and building process imo.I'm certainly not sure mid stakes are easier than micros though although play can be tighter and raises will tend to be more nutted hands rather than bluffs.

 

[Smokewood]

No stakes are a waste of time.

I disagree,
Sitting at a .01/.02 poker table for 3 hours to only profit 50 cents is a giant waste of time.

 

[PaxMundi]

I disagree,
Sitting at a .01/.02 poker table for 3 hours to only profit 50 cents is a giant waste of time.

The experience you gain is all profit in the bank,Tom Dwan started by grinding $1 sng's with a $50 bankroll.Lot's of top players and higher stakes players started from meager beginnings.And needless to say $50 for some people might be all they can afford to start off with and might be quite a'lot of money to them.So personally i wouldn't disrespect the efforts and time those players are putting into the game in an effort to learn improve and move up the stakes.More power to them i wish them a successful journey and if i can help a little a'long the way i certainly will.

 

[Poker Orifice]

I disagree,
Sitting at a .01/.02 poker table for 3 hours to only profit 50 cents is a giant waste of time.

Many people don't play online poker with their hourly winrate in mind. People play for different reasons. For many in micros it's just the enjoyment of the game... or a cheap avenue to work on the game.

 

[Poker Orifice]

In my experience the micros are tougher than the mid stakes.

What do you mean by this ^ ? How?

 

[Aslachiewicz]

stay positive continue to study!

I don't believe people who are playing 2nl-10nl are wasting their time and $14 to many people is a'lot of money.I just don't think the best advise to novice players is to jump in at 25nl and lose thousands of dollars. while learning the game

variance is crazy.. yes it will happen even after 15k hands and at the micros. You should continue to study and analyze your sessions. Stay positive always

 

[CRStals]

To be quite honest, poker has changed a lot in a few years, but I can tell you that the 5NL Zoom pool on Stars is beatable but is much more difficult to beat.

People on there don't care about the $5 and will use aggression to buy pots. The amount of donk betting, pot betting, overpot betting, and check raising that happens becomes tough to establish ranges but this is where you need to up your game through aggression which you have noted.

Depending on how much you play and how many hands & tables you do in a session, solid play will win out but you will hit a lot more variance because of the nitty plays and wacky hands you'll encounter.

 

[PaxMundi]

I noticed that very quickly on pokerstars regular tables in the micros it is just chocker block with bad aggressive players.Basically playing 300bb and 400bb pots with top pair no kicker and spewing 200bb into pots with complete air as bluffs.Personally i think these players are the easiest type to beat.