Preflop bet sizes (6-max)

[LuckyChippy]

It's a good idea and something you should play with. Atm I just play 4bb from all positions except the button if there are tight players in the blinds, then I knock it down to 3bb. I do agree with the concept though.

Only thing I would say (dunno if it's been said) but 6bb in the SB seems awful. 4bb or 3bb, I'm not sure, your range should be fairly tight so just 4bb it.

 

[LuckyChippy]

The nearest explanation I can give is that I think of my button range after someone has already entered the pot about the same as I think of my CO raising range.
Your sizing has to change, so your range has to as well.

I don't think it's the most optimal way to play. Yes after someone has entered the pot, we need to tighten our range on the button, but why are we doing this? If someone has limped before us it's pretty easy. We have 3 reasons to raise on the button. He limp folds too much, or he limp calls too much. This one can be split in to two again; folds to lots of c-bets and doesn't.

Obviously for the first one our bluffing range should widen to opening up pretty much any two, it's immediately profitable. The second part 1 we do pretty much the same, these guys are goldmines and are just giving us money, isolate and c-bet most flops. For part 2 We start adding lots more value hands, anything that will play well post flop and and broadways. We get rid of all our trash. We don't want to be 3-betting 94o when he's going to call every time. We want to make TPGK and value town him.

The reason for our range is MUCH more important than following a chart, whether it's one made by yourself or someone else.

 

[Ubercroz]

It's a good idea and something you should play with. Atm I just play 4bb from all positions except the button if there are tight players in the blinds, then I knock it down to 3bb. I do agree with the concept though.

Only thing I would say (dunno if it's been said) but 6bb in the SB seems awful. 4bb or 3bb, I'm not sure, your range should be fairly tight so just 4bb it.

Probably a good idea on the SB, that seemed pretty questionable at the time- 6bb is a lot, I was really thinking more that I want to 3bet from the blinds more than I want to do anything else- again its a pretty tight range.

4bb is probably more than enough since when I'm not 3beting I've either got a lot of limpers or only 1 opponent (the BB).

 

[thepokerkid123]

If you're raising 2bb as standard from the button your range should be 100%.

If someone limps before you, you have to forget about this hyperloose range and go back to something closer to 40% (that number is a really grossly innacurate estimate).

I agree with raising limpers wider than normal from anywhere that you're making a 3bb or greater raise as standard.

 

[Lofwyr]

I'd read some ideas elsewhere about preflop bet sizing based on position, but the author's take was the complete opposite of yours.

He advocated raising less from EP's and increasing bet size as you got closer to the button. Primary reasoning behind this is the amount of information you know. Many more potential monster hands out there against your UTG raise than your BTN raise so you wanted to reduce risk and commitment.

Now, the arguments behind this reverse bet sizing style seem pretty solid too. Wondering what you all think of the above?

Will say I'm tempted to give it a shot just to see...though I usually play FR, so first I'd have to really get a feel for 6-man.

 

[Stu_Ungar]

Id look at 2.5BB for your button range.

Id open wider on the button.. aim for 60%+ (depending on blinds)

CO looks good.. could be a little wider ~ 35%

The real problem is your SB/BB

Against an opener I like mainly 3betting and only calling the strongest hands.

However in an unopened pot Id be looking at a SB opening range of 25-35%

I would open the SB to the standard 3x

Right now I dont see why you are being so tight from the SB in an unopened pot. UTG is tight because there are 5 players left to act, but SB has only 1 so the % of folds will be higher. I think the way you are looking at it is that SB is UTG when everyone folds to SB but it isnt!

Other than the blinds it all looks good, just open a bit more from the button. The key here is to pick tables taht allow you to open wider rather than ranges that work against generic opponents. If the blinds arent rolling over and dying to your button raises, then you need to find a table where they do.

If BB isnt folding enough that you can open a lot then again move tables, I said 25-35% but I show an 80% steal success with a range of 65%!

If you look in HEM at your positional stats, how are you doing from the blinds?

Noone makes money from the blinds but you have to work on not losing as much. Its entirely possible (with your stats) that the money lost in the blinds is roughly the same as 75%+ of all the money you make from all other positions added together.

So by finding tables where you can open wider and get more folds (i.e. lose less from the blinds) by making no other change to your game your winrate should increase in the order of 2-3BB/100

 

[Stu_Ungar]

Random info: When you get 3bet after raising to 2bb, call really wide. SCers/Axs/22+ or more, the pot is still small and you've got position and a discount. They have to raise more than 4x for you to take it as seriously as most other 3bets.
Also there's a post over on the old 2+2 boards that is imo as good as the bible of blind stealing, which I'm not sure if I'm allowed to link to, so mods look away please: http://archives1.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Number=5348855
FWIW, this guy uses an example of 4bb, but he later made a video of him playing where he explained he'd switched to 2bb steals, which if you do some searching is worth a watch.

I wouldnt do this at microstakes.

Its good advice pitched at the wrong level.

The smaller steal size does allow you to play back and use your position with a much wider range. However the question is really, is your opponent playing back at you because of your wide button range and low steal amount, or is it just that he has a hand that is way ahead of you?

I would suggest that at micro-stakes, people arent playing back because of the favourable situation, they are playing back because of the 2 cards they hold. IN which case, your post flop play is hampered to fit or fold.

 

[j_unatrix]

I truly think if you are comfortable with this approach then it is probably a good one that will work for you. I also believe the more time you put in the more you will be sure of what type of betting size you should use and that the biggest factor is your opponents on any given table.