Multilevel Thinking related to Golden Archive Thread

[zachvac]

https://www.cardschat.com/f49/call-down-3rd-pair-there-method-my-madness-87711/

I just read that thread again, it's really well explained and goes over some good fundamental poker skills in putting opponents on hands. Now I believe you said it was a $24 tournament, and I'm not sure if the players there are good enough, but basically for those skills to work (calling down with 3rd pair because no hand that has you beat makes sense there) only works first off if your opponent is decent and understands basic strategy and secondly isn't good enough to think deeper than you. I'd like to discuss that second one.

Let's say it's very similar, I'm playing Combu in this tournament. I'm dealt 55 in the big blind. He makes a 3x preflop raise and I call hoping to set. Well just as I had hoped, the flop comes down 7h Jd 5s. Now we know he is a good thinking player, and we also know he could have been raising with a wide range of hands. We have 2 options. First is to check and hope he either bluffs or bets a good hand, like TPTK. But we know that if we check here and then come out firing later or simply check-raise, this good thinking player will realize that we have a strong hand and will want to keep the pot small with TPTK or an overpair.

So instead we lead out. We bet and we get a call. Excellent, just what we hoped for. Turn comes Qc, perfect. It completes the rainbow board so there are no flushes out there and it would be perfect for simply checking here and hoping he either bluffs or fires out thinking we've given up on our bluff if he has AJ or similar. But no, because we know that's exactly what he would think we were doing. So what do we do? We bet hard. That's right. He will never put us on a set after betting the flop and then betting the turn. The Q was perfect since now if we had top pair we would have been bluffing at the flop and this bet looks a lot like a bluff if we hit that flop. So we bet it and get another call. Now the river's just a technicality, the 6 of spades. We would have preferred a board pair to fill us up, but we don't have Combu on a straight here, and he's basically pot committed, so let's make the one last action that makes this look like a bluff. Let's shove it all-in. Isn't it true that sometimes a less than all-in bet but pot committing bet looks scarier than an all-in bet because the all-in is more likely to be a bluff? So let's make the bet that looks most like a bluff. We shove the river, get our opponent to call down with 3rd pair, and thus we have simply out-thought our opponent into stacking off to us with 3rd pair.

Now it's possible that maybe Combu didn't think this was a great player and wasn't capable of that level of thinking, but you see a lot of this type of play for example on high stakes poker. You've got hands like sets and even quads I think I remember pushing hard. Thoughts on this?

 

[Munchrs]

In general bad players slowplay there monsters and fastplay there weaker hands/bluff. Because they want their monsters to get paid and there weak hands/bluffs to get folded to because they dont have great showdown value.

By reversing this situation against a good player you can add more fold equity with you weak hands/bluffs and increase the number of big pots you win with your strong hands.

Basically its a form of pot control in conjuntion with a read on your opponent.

-If your opponent thinks that im bluffing then he is going to call me down light.

-If my opponent thinks I have a very strong hand then they are going to likely fold unless they also have a monster.

So to maximize your value with each type of hand you need to play it how your opponent would play the opposite strength hand.

Its player dependant but in general a pler with a set will slow play opting for a c/c flop and c/r turn type of line. or just a c/r flop. And with their weak hands and bluffs they will opt for pot bets and over bets to try and scare you out of the pot. So if thats is how they play their hands then if you play your hands using the same type of lines as your opponent uses then your opponent will make reads based on how they themselves play not on how you play.

So back to the example. By pushing with your strong hands it looks to your opponent that you are bluffing. And by slow playing your weak hands it looks to your opponent that you have a very strong hand and want to get him all-in.

In a sentance, if you want to represent a hand, then play it like your opponent would play a hand that wont beat your opponents 3rd pair in this situation.

 

[aliengenius]

Nobody liked combu's play, but he basically decided that:

1. his opponent was aware enough to notice his aggressive previous play.
2. he would therefore check raise the flop with a pair/strong hand.

All action stemmed from that "read".
Fwiw, I wasn't convinced.