Low buy in Turbos - When to Push?

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bw07507

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In low buy-in turbos, Im just curious when do you guys start to push. If I get below 10 BB I will pretty much push if it is folded to me in the CO or Button no matter what, I do it sometimes if there are limpers in front if I dont think they will call the all in with ATC. After seeing the hands that people will call down with though I am thinking of just waiting and waiting until I get an Ace or PP to push. There is no sense in waiting for position and a good time to push with a crappy hand when people will call off half their stack with 98o. I used to play in the 6 and 15 dollar turbos where people would pretty much only call with good hands, so position and reads were everything when deciding when to push. In the 3 dollar turbos I think waiting for atleast an Ace might be better. My last 3 all ins have been called by 98o, J7s, and Q10o. All of these people called off atleast 1/3 of their stack.
 
NineLions

NineLions

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Ya, I've had some thoughts about this too bw.

I've altered my strategy in the 3.40 turbos on Stars, and have started being willing to go low, even down to under 5 BBs if I'm outside the bubble yet, waiting for a top 20-25 hand before pushing. Partly this is because of as you say, people willing to call with mediocre drawing hands, partly because at these levels players will let you work your way back from less than 10BBs. A chip and a chair can work at these levels.
 
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ph_il

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I dont like to wait till im down 10 BBs or below because its so easy for big stacks to call. I'll push anywhere between 12-16 BBs if I have to. I'll also play back on the blinds if the Button raises. Or if Im SB, I'll push against the BB or if the SB raises me on BB, I'll push back.

And finally if Im on the bubble, I'll just constantly push. I've come back so many times while pushing constantly. I've noticed similar size stacks are afraid to call because they might double you up and leave themselves crippled. Sometimes bigger stacks dont want to call because if they do and lose, it'll bring their stack down and give you more ammuniton to play with. I've also noticed players will get scared of you a lot of the time, unless they beat you to the punch and push all in. I've had players in the SB fold to me in BB when it would cost them 1 more BB to put me all in...
 
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j-peso83

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i love turbos.... play tight and force races
 
ChuckTs

ChuckTs

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There's definitely a big difference between like the $3s and the $16s at stars. People just plain play differently, and you have to adjust. I'd say the variance is like 10x higher in the lower limit because of people's crazy calling ranges. Making any profit long-term is such a grind.

One thing that is different is that you have, say, %40 loose players on average in the $16s. Targeting the other tighter players for blind steals makes it a whole lot easier. In the $3s, you've probably got the exact opposite - %60 or %70 loose players, and in order to steal successfully, you either have to pick up a solid hand or get lucky (by winning as a dog, or by avoiding a call from your opponents).

The players at the micros also play just...well, differently. For example:

$16 game:
Weak/loose villain limps utg, 2 more limp behind, and a player with TT pushes his ~10BB stack. You fold your KQ, wait for a first-in opportunity, and save your tourney life.

$3 game:
Weak/loose villain limps utg, 3 more limp behind, and you decide to push your 10BB stack with KQ. Everyone folds, except the third limper who shows TT, and beats you.

I've seen countless odd things like this, and you have to adjust. Identify the calling stations, the rocks, and pick your spots. Make sure you don't get below that 10BB line too - if you do, stick your chips in the first favorable spot.
 
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JD1909

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Identify the calling stations, the rocks, and pick your spots. Make sure you don't get below that 10BB line too - if you do, stick your chips in the first favorable spot.
I think this is a big part as well in turbos when you have to shove all the time. Knowing who you're playing after the flop makes it ten times easier to try and identify hands that beat you, induce bets when you hit hands, etc.
 
NineLions

NineLions

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There's definitely a big difference between like the $3s and the $16s at stars. People just plain play differently, and you have to adjust.

.......

Make sure you don't get below that 10BB line too - if you do, stick your chips in the first favorable spot.

Not to disagree, Chuck, or, on second thought, maybe I am disagreeing :)


I see the 10 BB as a point where you lose your fold equity, and that is a major reason to get your chips in. But, from my as yet limited experience with these STTs at this level I find that, like bw, people will call when they shouldn't be calling; they have you only slightly outchipped and call with their A2o when you push your 77. I interpret this as telling me that my fold equity is not as valuable as I think it should be, thereby getting under 10BBs is not as a crucial line as it would be in a CC tourney.

That, combined with a lack of increased aggression from the big stacks makes it worthwhile for me to be willing to drop down to 5BBs if I'm not getting a good situation to push. Thoughts, anyone?
 
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bw07507

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I agree with NL here. People will call off 3/4 of their stack with Q10 and such so u might aswell just wait til u have a good hand to push, or if u know a person is tight, u can shove against him, but say u have 9 BB left and it is folded to u on the button. You have 56o. Normally I would shove here b/c I am down below 10 BB, but I will not shove in these b/c of the likelihood of getting called with Q10 and below, its just not worth it.

I have found in these that if I catch cards or get lucky, I place, if I dont catch cards or get unlucky, I lose, simple as that. It is impossible to make a play or bluff someone as they will call down with as little as A high. I have about a 25% ROI over 200 of them (mostly at bodog). Its strange that the play in the 3 dollar turbos at bodog is slightly better than the play at PS.
 
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jeffred1111

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The 10BB rule also doesn't always take into consideration the fact that these SNG very often go 6 or 7 handed well into the 100/200 blind level (and sometimes the bubble is still intact at the 200/4000 or 300/600 levels). When it comes dow to this, the SNG turns into a crapshoot, yes, but agression will get payed off big (people will allow you to come back, even with only 3BB), so the crapshoot aspect plays in our favor if we don't donk to others too.

This is also why we should try to bust out players unless we have a massive chipstacks compared to others. It reduces the chance of someone pushing us out us of pots (going all-in with 2BB in the SB when we hold Q4o in the BB) or having to fold crappy hands at 200/400 for 3 orbits, practically giving our chips away. We become card dependant if we don't work as hard as possible to take a commanding chip lead or to thin out the competition before the blinds get huge. This is an aspect that other players don't sometimes realize and make huge mistakes that come back to bite them (or us).

Calling the 2BB push because we figure to be at a coinflip (ATC) late in these turbos is a mistake since we are giving ammunition if we don't connect (and sometimes many people call it in order to gamble and they all lose, failing to bust out someone and neutralizing their advantage). Implicit collusion is not in their vcabulary, but it should be in ours.
 
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jeffred1111

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I have found in these that if I catch cards or get lucky, I place, if I dont catch cards or get unlucky, I lose, simple as that. It is impossible to make a play or bluff someone as they will call down with as little as A high. I have about a 25% ROI over 200 of them (mostly at bodog). Its strange that the play in the 3 dollar turbos at bodog is slightly better than the play at PS.

This is true, but if we only make +EV plays (and I'm talking in tournament terms, here), the variance won't affect us over a long period of time and we come out winners nonetheless: we will get the same numbers of bad and good cards, the things we do with them is what will determine the outcome. This means that many of our play or bluffs will have to come preflop or on the flop only. But rationally, late in these, the only weapons we have is stealing, restealing and c-betting (plus the stop n' go), but they are powerful weapon if we used against the right opponents at the right time. True bluffing or fancy plays often don't work or backfire, so the +EV play is to play straightforward agressive poker most of the time.

On this note, I've yet to encounter on a regular basis a veritable calling station/maniac go deep in these. Their luck eventually run out and only the nits/rock/solid players get to the bubble most of the time (at least at PS).
 
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