Did I play this poorly?

[el_magiciann]

I think you should re raise strong the flop but if the villain is calling station he would call with his top pair alwfull kicker at the flop...

 

[PLAYINBIG]

I think you should re raise strong the flop but if the villain is calling station he would call with his top pair alwfull kicker at the flop...

He never had a top pair on flop.Not even a pair.Only hopes and dreams.He called pot size on flop with nothing.

 

[Ubercroz]

He never had a top pair on flop.Not even a pair.Only hopes and dreams.He called pot size on flop with nothing.

If you want to discuss your hand you should post your own thread. Otherwise it is just going to be confusing.

Post it in hand analysis.

You also posted a tournament hand in cash games. Maybe you should review what you are doing.

 

[akb1979]

Arjonious , thx for ur reply. I am a beginner..so pls do not take it otherwise,maybe my questions are very novice.

What if the villain had over pair ?? Or if he had a set ?? Or T6 two pair ?? Would have JJ been played any different from what it had been ??

Rather lets put it this way...what was the range that he put the villain on ??

Would appreciate the thought process on the same.

 

[Leprekahn]

I like your line. Your call on the flop was the reason villain made the mistake of betting pot on turn.

With the villain only having .32 cents behind on the turn, you prob should put him in.

 

[Arjonius]

Arjonious , thx for ur reply. I am a beginner..so pls do not take it otherwise,maybe my questions are very novice.

NP. We were all new once and asked newbie questions.

What if the villain had over pair ?? Or if he had a set ?? Or T6 two pair ?? Would have JJ been played any different from what it had been ??

Rather lets put it this way...what was the range that he put the villain on ??

Villain's range is villain-dependent. A nit who never steals has a very different range from a maniac who always tries, and there's the full range in between too. And those ranges affect the probability of their having flopped particular hands, For instance, the hypothetical nit is extremely unlikely to have opened T6.

Sure any type of opponent can have a better hand. But how are you going to find out if you don't bet? If you check, even a nit may well cbet some unpaired high card hands and middle pocket pairs that you're actually ahead of. A maniac may well cbet any two.

Against a completely unknown villain, I'm betting the flop. But this is a pretty unrealistic scenario since not only does he have to be unknown, but I also need to have mis-clicked pre-.

 

[daredeviljo]

So your saying, essentially, that it was fine because the hand happened to turn out that he lost?

Your saying the right move on the turn was not to put more money in the pot even though the villain is most likely going to lose?

I don't understand your reasoning. This is exactly results oriented thinking.

You have to consider what the odds are, what the range the opponent has, and not focus on the fact that you lost the hand.

What are yout talking about? Your deductions are completely out of context.

The Hero stated that the Villain had been protecting his BB; this shows that the Villains range could be anything. Putting this into perspective, we must analyze the Hero's thinking. From the heroes perspective, JJ is a stong preflop hand, understandable 4x raise. Going onto the flop, that's fantastic, no flush draws outside straight draw, but the fact the Villain pushes so much should make the Hero feel uneasy. The bet on the turn was $1.50... $4.52-$0.74-$1.50= $2.28 (The Villains stack after his $1.50 bet). A raise by the Hero here would make the Villain allin. To minimize losses vs. mazimize profit, the optimum move for the Hero would be to call (which he did). The villains range consists of pretty much anything, including 2 pair or trips* (more likely than trips seeing as one would call BB to defend their lower pockets). A raise on the river would be somewhat rational. Villain probably expected the raise hoping for a three-bet.

From my original post, I stand by to defend the Hero's actions. My rationalizing is not after the result, I just anazlyzed each position so your claim is dismissed.

Maybe you are more of an aggressive thinker, but this is my thought process during this hand.

 

[Ubercroz]

What are yout talking about? Your deductions are completely out of context.

The Hero stated that the Villain had been protecting his BB; this shows that the Villains range could be anything. Putting this into perspective, we must analyze the Hero's thinking. From the heroes perspective, JJ is a stong preflop hand, understandable 4x raise. Going onto the flop, that's fantastic, no flush draws outside straight draw, but the fact the Villain pushes so much should make the Hero feel uneasy. The bet on the turn was $1.50... $4.52-$0.74-$1.50= $2.28 (The Villains stack after his $1.50 bet). A raise by the Hero here would make the Villain allin. To minimize losses vs. mazimize profit, the optimum move for the Hero would be to call (which he did). The villains range consists of pretty much anything, including 2 pair or trips* (more likely than trips seeing as one would call BB to defend their lower pockets). A raise on the river would be somewhat rational. Villain probably expected the raise hoping for a three-bet.

From my original post, I stand by to defend the Hero's actions. My rationalizing is not after the result, I just anazlyzed each position so your claim is dismissed.

Maybe you are more of an aggressive thinker, but this is my thought process during this hand.

Your making some assumptions that may or may not be correct, and if they are correct don't match up with the rest of your thoughts.

1: The villain is defending his BB with any two cards. At pre-flop we do not know that is the case. He could be calling a fairly tight range. potentially not "defending," but rather had cards he wanted to see the flop with. However, if we assume that he is making this play with any two cards (I am guessing that when the OP says he is defending he means calling, not a raise) then that must inform the remainder of our decisions.

2: The flop. So we should be good a lot of the time here on the flop. We have over cards and a T is probably in a lot of this guys range. If he is calling with ATC then he could very easily have a pair here. If he does, then we should still be fine. It is a very strange line to take to donk into the PFR. If he is playing ATC at this point we should still figure that we are ahead most of the time. This guy is getting aggressive but his story doesn't make any sense. What could he have hit here? A set? two pair? Maybe, but a broad range doesn't make that likely. And a bad player is likely to over value his mediocre holdings. If we assign a tighter range to him we could think that this is a better hand. This is where your thinking kind of contradicts itself. If he is playing a broad range, we should be fine. If he is playing a tight range we should be worried. If we are concerned we are losing here then we shouldn't be thinking he is playing ATC.

3: On the turn the 8 shouldn't really change much, It makes one draw better, and now makes a pair of 8's ahead of us. Bu thats about it. So based off our pre-flop and flop reasoning we should likely be ahead. The villain leading with a pot sized bet is super spewy. We do have to reconsider his range here. What kinds of hands would we assume are doing this? There really aren't any that make sense. It is a strange line to take with any hand, especially from someone who played the pre-flop so passively. Its hard to imagine this as an over pair, given his post flop aggression its not likely he would have just called preflop. Its hard to think this is a set - though that could make sense. He just wants to jam on us with a set and hope we call his spew. It could be a pair maybe its a bad player trying with a marginal hand trying to get us to fold. Or it could be air and just trying to get folds with big bets.

Given that we have assessed his range as weak, I would favor thinking he is either over representing his hand or he is bluffing with pure air. There is some amount of the time that he is ahead but this is just the most uncoordinated dry board. He is not check-raising us, and is just throwing money at the pot.

I would really not mind a shove on the turn. If he is ahead of us, that might be enough to get a fold - though that is unlikely from this guy. We also get calls from many many worse hands that have over committed themselves. I think that is the best play. Maybe we fold a better hand 5% of the time. I think that he is just very very likely (based off his play) to get a call from those single pair hands.

I really don't like a call here. We have already committed ourselves at that point. Is there ever a time that we call the turn that we don't call the river? I don't think there is. We have too much money in the pot and can't really fold to a bluff. So if we are going to call that river bet we may as well shove the turn instead. It puts pressure on him to make a bad call.

It would be better to call under a very specific set of circumstances. We would have to recognize that we are calling any river bet as well. We would have to know that he will only bluff or bet with weaker hands AND that he would always check his better hands. If we don't know that he is doing that, then we should just shove.

A fold is okay too. You can fold without committing much more. I think that we are ahead a little too often for a fold to make a lot of sense but I think it is better than a call.

So I would rank it as shove, fold, call. Shoving puts pressure and gets value. Folding saves our bank roll from putting too much money in the pot with medium strength hand. Calling commits us and we have to call all value bets on the river.

 

[daredeviljo]

Your making some assumptions that may or may not be correct, and if they are correct don't match up with the rest of your thoughts.

1: The villain is defending his BB with any two cards. At pre-flop we do not know that is the case. He could be calling a fairly tight range. potentially not "defending," but rather had cards he wanted to see the flop with. However, if we assume that he is making this play with any two cards (I am guessing that when the OP says he is defending he means calling, not a raise) then that must inform the remainder of our decisions.

Agreed.

2: The flop. So we should be good a lot of the time here on the flop. We have over cards and a T is probably in a lot of this guys range. If he is calling with ATC then he could very easily have a pair here. If he does, then we should still be fine. It is a very strange line to take to donk into the PFR. If he is playing ATC at this point we should still figure that we are ahead most of the time. This guy is getting aggressive but his story doesn't make any sense. What could he have hit here? A set? two pair? Maybe, but a broad range doesn't make that likely. And a bad player is likely to over value his mediocre holdings. If we assign a tighter range to him we could think that this is a better hand. This is where your thinking kind of contradicts itself. If he is playing a broad range, we should be fine. If he is playing a tight range we should be worried. If we are concerned we are losing here then we shouldn't be thinking he is playing ATC.

I completely agree with your statement. However, set is quite likely, higher pockets are possible, two pair not so likely, range is narrowing. But good point about the mediocre 10,8+S.

3: On the turn the 8 shouldn't really change much, It makes one draw better, and now makes a pair of 8's ahead of us. Bu thats about it. So based off our pre-flop and flop reasoning we should likely be ahead. The villain leading with a pot sized bet is super spewy. We do have to reconsider his range here. What kinds of hands would we assume are doing this? There really aren't any that make sense. It is a strange line to take with any hand, especially from someone who played the pre-flop so passively. Its hard to imagine this as an over pair, given his post flop aggression its not likely he would have just called preflop. Its hard to think this is a set - though that could make sense. He just wants to jam on us with a set and hope we call his spew. It could be a pair maybe its a bad player trying with a marginal hand trying to get us to fold. Or it could be air and just trying to get folds with big bets.

Given that we have assessed his range as weak, I would favor thinking he is either over representing his hand or he is bluffing with pure air. There is some amount of the time that he is ahead but this is just the most uncoordinated dry board. He is not check-raising us, and is just throwing money at the pot.

I would really not mind a shove on the turn. If he is ahead of us, that might be enough to get a fold - though that is unlikely from this guy. We also get calls from many many worse hands that have over committed themselves. I think that is the best play. Maybe we fold a better hand 5% of the time. I think that he is just very very likely (based off his play) to get a call from those single pair hands.

I really don't like a call here. We have already committed ourselves at that point. Is there ever a time that we call the turn that we don't call the river? I don't think there is. We have too much money in the pot and can't really fold to a bluff. So if we are going to call that river bet we may as well shove the turn instead. It puts pressure on him to make a bad call.

It would be better to call under a very specific set of circumstances. We would have to recognize that we are calling any river bet as well. We would have to know that he will only bluff or bet with weaker hands AND that he would always check his better hands. If we don't know that he is doing that, then we should just shove.

A fold is okay too. You can fold without committing much more. I think that we are ahead a little too often for a fold to make a lot of sense but I think it is better than a call.

So I would rank it as shove, fold, call. Shoving puts pressure and gets value. Folding saves our bank roll from putting too much money in the pot with medium strength hand. Calling commits us and we have to call all value bets on the river.

At this point, I'd have to disagree with you. Set is quite a possibility, you may marginalize the possibility of higher pockets, and yes, two pair isn't quite likely. However his range is still an issue. The problem is, you cannot assume that he is betting air. From a reasonable standpoint, one would not lead air with 15% of his stack on the flop, and 40% of his remaining stack on a turn. If he did have air, he would more than likely consider the Hero's range and bet accordingly, maybe a $0.24 bet or at least one more reasonable. The fact of the matter is, that as a Hero at this position a call would be a smart move. You gain nothing by shoving as you wouldn't get the Villain to fold (as it would be a weak/timid shove). Therefore, the intention of allining is to maximize equity by assuming the opponent has a worser hand than yours. Given this information, and the fact draws are running out, it should not hurt to see a river card, because it would not change the intention of the Villain (as he is allin regardless).

At this point, the Villain is more committed than we are and we must understand that a call may minimize losses (as oppose to your thinking of maximize profits). The call could possibly be the action that caused the Villain to refrain from allining (river could have been a beginner value bet). The opponent could be semi-bluffing and a shove would cause him to fold and us to lose value. However, a fold is barely considerable, as from previous deductions minimizing possibilities of higher pockets or two pair, I'd say a safe call is acceptable.

I feel to Call/Shove/Fold... Call is the safer Shove, minimizing our losses and allowing the opponent to shove a weaker pair such as A8 or A6. Shoving in the attempt to hope our opponent has a pair of 10's or a hand he ignorantly feels is stronger than ours. Folding may be an option to minimize losses, but not as good as calling, and as previously stated, I feel we beat the optimum range.

To Summarize, Calling is more valuable as more of his range would shove moving onto the river.

 

[Ronoh]

Hero played the hand worse than villain... not understanding where all of the villain bashers are coming from aside from the preflop call. He flopped top pair, should he think he is behind? Still has TP on the turn... hero called the flop but big deal, everyone and their mother are calling any raised/missed broadway ace at these stakes and most professionals would often be throwing out a re-raise with said hand on that flop to either take it down or find out where they are.

Hero should have raised the flop and jammed the turn.

 

[Boriska797]

You play very badly.Change the tactics.

 

[hffjd2000]

Just bad luck. You have to pay him off.
You are ahead on the turn except river. Your move is just fine. His move isnt.

 

[Samango]

Everybody plays as can.You have the tactics.You played well.So continue.

Everybody plays as can.You have the tactics.You played well.So continue

You play very badly.Change the tactics.

These posts are pretty unhelpful, duplicate themselves, then contradict each other. !!!
I don't think they will be contributing towards your quality post count for entry into the Freeroll Club!