How long to beat the micro stakes??

[NineLions]

Thanks for all the replies
I have a good BRM I think. I have deposited 20£ a few times since I started when my account was 0) and I want to be able to build that up to 80$ before I move up. I can totally see the sence in being able to beat the weaker players before taking on better players, but it is just hard to be drawn out on when you think you are playing the way more experienced players recomend.
I was playing good during May, broke even, and then I downloaded poker tracker and saw that my VPIP was almost 40. The last 2000 hands I have played with a VPIP of 24 and PFR 9 and this has killed me. I don't play any hidden big hands anymore because I don't limp or raise a little with a low suited connector anymore such as 89s and there for I dont win many big pots anymore. It does feel like I have been super unlucky regarding being drawn on all the time but could there be another exlanation:
Is it possible that it is better for me to have a high VPIP and fish for monsters by limping when the table allows this.?
I know this is counter to what everybody says about beating the micro stakes but this is how it feels just now.
I will post some hands as well in the appropriate section.
Cheers

All of this depends on the table size, opponent reads, table dynamics. Do post some hands and you'll get better advice.

 

[doomasiggy]

Microstakes I find to be much harder than mid stakes. The mid it's a lot harder to call a 2 or 3 dollar raise than a 12 cent raise. You find a lot less speculative hands being played

surely that makes the micro's easier than the mid stakes because people will limp-call with anything.

 

[Arjonius]

whats wrong with depositing?

Nothing per se. I don't even have a problem with expecting to lose your deposit provided (a) it's money you can easily afford to lose, and (b) you actually learn while losing it.

At that level people are reasoning junk calls with "its only $2"

And why is this bad for you? It's very profitable to play against opponents who don't care if they lose. It does usually require adapting your game, but again, why is doing this and learning to do it bad?

Bluffs are almost impossible, and people are making crazy raises (% compared to his full $2)

So? Why is bluffing so important that you think you should move up to play better opponents so that you can bluff more? And what makes you think being able to bluff some more will make it more profitable to play these better opponents?

So getting out of the limits is going to take more luck than at other limits and good plays are less significant.

This reeks of FPS. Good play is whatever gives you a solid +EV. It's not about making plays because you want to, but because the circumstances (which includes more than just the cards) are appropriate.

 

[danprince10]

Great advice in this thread imo.

 

[CaptainKout]

Blackrain79 beats 2nl for 14bb/100 hands. Shouldn't take long to get a roll big enough to move up to 4 or 5nl at that rate. Or half that rate. Also you might like his book, I haven't read it and I'm not an affiliate but I like his style and his videos on DTB.

 

[ruffcut68]

This is the best advice seen

Thanks for posting this. Tried a higher limit and got almost wiped out. Starting over at 2nl and have done a bit of work on the game Sample sizd still to small .. but going from loser to a winner is becoming a reality............

OP,

Value bet relentlessly

Don't bluff.

Don't pay off. When a loose passive player starts raising you let it go unless you're holding close to the nuts.

That's all you need to do. Also, as suggested by others, post hands.

If you are looking for a book on the topic get Blackrain79's book "Crushing the Microstakes". It will tell you everything that you ever wanted to know about beating 2NL up to about 10NL at least in step by step detail. Also Blackrain79 is a member here as well as a coach at Drag the Bar. He often posts in the cash games hand analysis sub forum and would gladly answer any questions that you might have about his book.

Don't move up stakes without learning to beat the stakes below. If you aren't beating 2NL your game has serious leaks and if you move up without addressing them you will bleed money.

Good luck

 

[Arjonius]

Blackrain79 beats 2nl for 14bb/100 hands. Shouldn't take long to get a roll big enough to move up to 4 or 5nl at that rate. Or half that rate.

For most micro players, this probably isn't a great way to think because it's basically wishful thinking. It's certainly possible to beat 2NL for 5-10bb/100. But the best way to get there isn't to think "All I have to do is win at half the rate of the top player." It's true, but so what? What's missing here is the second thought that often accompanies this one, namely "How hard can that be?" or "That won't be too hard."

At any given level, the losers and b/e players far outnumber the consistent winners. I don't have any reliable figures, but I'd guess that no more than 20% fall in the latter category. So statistically speaking, just becoming one of the latter isn't easy. And just being in said 20% doesn't doesn't mean you're winning at 14bb/100 or even half of that.

 

[Matt Vaughan]

For most micro players, this probably isn't a great way to think because it's basically wishful thinking. It's certainly possible to beat 2NL for 5-10bb/100. But the best way to get there isn't to think "All I have to do is win at half the rate of the top player." It's true, but so what? What's missing here is the second thought that often accompanies this one, namely "How hard can that be?" or "That won't be too hard."

At any given level, the losers and b/e players far outnumber the consistent winners. I don't have any reliable figures, but I'd guess that no more than 20% fall in the latter category. So statistically speaking, just becoming one of the latter isn't easy. And just being in said 20% doesn't doesn't mean you're winning at 14bb/100 or even half of that.

+1

 

[acky100]

Microstakes I find to be much harder than mid stakes. The mid it's a lot harder to call a 2 or 3 dollar raise than a 12 cent raise. You find a lot less speculative hands being played

lolololololol

 

[CaptainKout]

For result-oriented newbs, like myself, knowing that good micro players crush their games at that kind of clip means that if I play well I can move up in x-amount of time. It helps keep me plugging away at 4nl and since its a thread asking "how long do I have to play micros" from somebody who wants to move up, i think its welcome information. I found myself wondering "how beatable is this game/stake?" Its like seeing the grading scale. Profit is a passing grade, now you know what an A requires. I also saw a thread on 2+2 where a couple coaches did a micro challenge and they both were able to beat it for over 20bb/100 over 20k hands**(which was a sidebet on the thread) as they built up a bankroll absurdly fast. Striving for excellence can never be that bad a thing. And getting creative or pushing the envelope, i would think, is an important part of finding your game.

**One of the coaches actually busted but came back the next month and matched the other guys winrate. Sorry I can't find the thread now.

**They played 4-max for most of the challenge.

another disclaimer- This is a different mindset than, "it shouldn't be hard to beat the game at half the rate of a pro."

 

[Cafeman]

The confused spake:-

Microstakes I find to be much harder than mid stakes. The mid it's a lot harder to call a 2 or 3 dollar raise than a 12 cent raise. You find a lot less speculative hands being played

And then He said unto him:-

lolololololol

 

[CaptainKout]

Another statistic that might be comforting, my negative sloping(really negative) learning curve lasted about 30k hands. Which was probably prolonged because I tried to multitable in the beginning when I should have been going through the "poker thought process." Another 30k hands and I'm still on the learning curve but for the most part I know when I make the really dum moves/calls. The slightly dum ones I hope to work out in the next 30-50k. Best of luck man. Also, playing without fear of blowing your bankroll really helped me develop a game. It allowed me to experiment. Thats the magic of proper bankroll management. Some say 20buy ins, some 40 buy ins(which is what I'm doing), but if you have a 100 buy ins then you're basically a free man.

 

[Matt Vaughan]

Thats the MAGIC of proper bankroll management.

+1,000,000

 

[Arjonius]

Microstakes I find to be much harder than mid stakes. The mid it's a lot harder to call a 2 or 3 dollar raise than a 12 cent raise. You find a lot less speculative hands being played

It's harder for you, but that doesn't mean it applies to other people. A vital reason for proper BRM is to allow yourself to play without being influenced to think like this. Basically, to a reg at a level where $12 is a normal bet, it's the same as .12 is for you.

And as you move up in levels, you'll see little if any decline in how often speculative hands are played. The ranges and situations will shift, but if you expect everyone to play ABC or TAG, just go watch mid-or high-stakes tables for a while.

 

[Grindabod]

Thanks for the advise and THEY SEEM TO WORK
I have posted a few hands and gotten good advise. One was about bet sizing and it seem like I have not raised enough when I did raise (which was not nearly often enough). So betting and raising preflop and post flop and denying others to draw cheaply has helped a lot.
Also I have been a bit too loose and maybe not enough aware of position.
Trying to fold more when someone re-raises and paying more attention to the board and possible outs, both others as well as mines has made me better.
Advise about betting for value relentlessly when I think I might be ahead is working really well. It makes a lot of villain fold before I even have to showdown.
It has only been working for the last couple of days and I know this could be variance, but it seem like it has really made a difference. I still loose all my stack sometimes but I have been able to get it back up again (twice today I managed to loose 2$ and make it all back fast by tighten up and up the aggression). I have been playing with a big smile on my face for the last couple of days.
As I said this might be variance, but Im optimistic and chose to believe that I have turned some sort of corner with the 2NL. My BR is 27$ at the moment and I'll keep you guys posted.

 

[NineLions]

Good on you, for listening and taking steps to get proper advice, and then taking it.

 

[alaskabill]

Glad to see that you are working on your game and seeing progress. Good luck to you.