I was playing some cash games last night, and wanting to work specifically with on my 3bet strategies. Upon getting into the game, I realized that I was playing against a LAG to my left (VPIP just under 40 and PFR just over 30) and it felt like each time I raised to open a pot, he’d 3bet me and then called by the player to his left who was playing tight-passive. I folded the first couple of times because I didn’t feel my hand was strong enough to stand up to 3bet OOP. I ended up really tightening up and my VPIP in game went from 29 to 13 within a couple of orbits. I even folded marginally strong hands just because I needed to be able to stand up to his 3bet if he did. Now, I did keep a level head — in the past, I would have tilted and gone stupid aggressive on him to try to make him fold.

Did I do the right thing? I didn’t want to move off the table as I just wanted to learn how to play better, even in these situations.

In the rounds he was in, I was down by as much as 30BB. He eventually busted out and left table after he showed down his AJs (or something like that) against AA.

As soon as he left the table, my play opened up and I played more aggressively again and within about 3 or 4 orbits, I went to being +55BB. If I wasn’t so tired, I would have continued playing as I was able to push some folks around on the table with some 3bets in position.

Is this normal? Any suggestions on how to handle this situation?

Unless its a very small sample, I would classify a 40/30 as a maniac rather than LAG. Its simply to many hands, and this player type is almost never a long term winning player. He is playing for fun and probably enjoying to bluff and push other players around. He see himself as “the boss” and the other players as “chicken”.

Having a maniac on your direct left is just a pain in the butt, and table change or seat change is absolutely a valid option. However if its otherwise a good table, or if its a tournament, so you have to stay, then you basically want to use his aggression against him and let him hang himself. It is correct to tighten up your opening range, but you should also call his 3-bets more wide and 4-bet more wide. Basically look to bet-fold less.

Postflop its basically the same concept. C-bet less, so that both your C-betting and checking range become stronger, and look to throw in some check-raises to punish him for his desire to bet whenever checked to. And become a bit of a calling station and look to go all the way to showdown with hands like a strong top pair.

sometimes you need to be bold ... not always the best hand wins the pot .... we need to count on luck ....

Originally Posted by fundiver199

Unless its a very small sample, I would classify a 40/30 as a maniac rather than LAG. Its simply to many hands, and this player type is almost never a long term winning player. He is playing for fun and probably enjoying to bluff and push other players around. He see himself as “the boss” and the other players as “chicken”.

Having a maniac on your direct left is just a pain in the butt, and table change or seat change is absolutely a valid option. However if its otherwise a good table, or if its a tournament, so you have to stay, then you basically want to use his aggression against him and let him hang himself. It is correct to tighten up your opening range, but you should also call his 3-bets more wide and 4-bet more wide. Basically look to bet-fold less.

Postflop its basically the same concept. C-bet less, so that both your C-betting and checking range become stronger, and look to throw in some check-raises to punish him for his desire to bet whenever checked to. And become a bit of a calling station and look to go all the way to showdown with hands like a strong top pair.

Thanks for the tips. I keep forgetting about the check raise to keep them honest. It’s something I’ll try to remember when I’m in a similar situation again.

At the time that I did the bet-fold, I really didn’t know what I was up against until the second time he 3bet me and I folded. I was determined not to fold to him again (preflop) which is why I totally tightened up, and almost went nitty.

As I observed more, I noticed more tendencies. I struggle with playing OOP, so calling a 3bet wide is not the most comfortable thing for me to do. But if I do so, checking the flop becomes more of an option then and I guess I can see what to do after that... maybe raise if I get a piece of the flop and call him down the rest of the to see what he has if his postflop play isn’t overly aggressive.

Anyway, thanks for the ideas. Much appreciated.

I generally fight back by tightening up and then four bet shoving.

Caveat, I like to play short stacked so I can more likely get calls from guys like that. I dont mind going into showdowns the 2:1 favorite.

Originally Posted by blueskies

I generally fight back by tightening up and then four bet shoving.

Caveat, I like to play short stacked so I can more likely get calls from guys like that. I dont mind going into showdowns the 2:1 favorite.

Short or cap stacking (40 BB) in cash games does not really work for me. But one of the advantages is definitely this option to just 4-bet all in, if someone on your left is getting out of line with their 3-bets. It takes away their option to just call your 4-bet and have position on you postflop. Which can obviously get pretty awkward even with AK, if you miss the flop.

In addition to raising tighter, you can limp hands you would normally open raise with and let him hang himself.

When you're playing against a LAG at a table, you have an excellent opportunity to get all of your chips in against this player with the best hand. There's nothing wrong with folding until you identify this player as being a LAG. After that point, I think the best path is to call, though losing all-in races against these kinds of players is especially frustrating. But you can't ask much more than going into such a situation with the best cards.

Originally Posted by fundiver199

Unless its a very small sample, I would classify a 40/30 as a maniac rather than LAG. Its simply to many hands, and this player type is almost never a long term winning player. He is playing for fun and probably enjoying to bluff and push other players around. He see himself as “the boss” and the other players as “chicken”.

Having a maniac on your direct left is just a pain in the butt, and table change or seat change is absolutely a valid option. However if its otherwise a good table, or if its a tournament, so you have to stay, then you basically want to use his aggression against him and let him hang himself. It is correct to tighten up your opening range, but you should also call his 3-bets more wide and 4-bet more wide. Basically look to bet-fold less.

Postflop its basically the same concept. C-bet less, so that both your C-betting and checking range become stronger, and look to throw in some check-raises to punish him for his desire to bet whenever checked to. And become a bit of a calling station and look to go all the way to showdown with hands like a strong top pair.

good advice, take note!

I am afraid it is unavoidable to start to be a bit more aggressive. We are all agree that the first thing to do is tighten up our opening range. After that we need to start to fight back by 4Bet shoving or calling 3Bet and then keeping up if we catch a piece of flop, at less he was a maniac it could be enough to get the showdown and win most of the time. Against a maniac the story is different and you need to be much more aggressive and to risk more.

You can just sit out. But this is not always possible. You can play tourney or on the table are some calling stations, maniacs. I mean "good profitable" table. You have 4bet shove, of course. No shame in that. But again, if the stacks are deep, 4bet shove very rare is profitable. This is actually big problem in the poker. Not only for you. Deep stacks, some agresive player (but not maniac) behind you. Lets say, you are on UTG. Many hands have half blind profit and smaller. Depends on 3bet percent behind you. Can be more, can be less (the profit). And only one player ruins everything. Of course this is bad for him also. There are other players behind you and him. There is a rake. You must use tight range. No other option. I don't think bluff heavy range will be good without specific info. You must use tight range, because the profit from you bottom range (raise-fold) is too small. And if he use wide range for 3bet, this bottom range can be unprofitable. You will call, of course, but no matter. You will lose lets say 2.5 blinds.

I am talking about UTG and MP. Tight range is 10% and 13%. Really tight range. But profitable for sure. If you have the same "skills". Also SB is a problem. 25-26% is tight enough. With wide 4bet range. On BU and CO is easy. If you use some tight default ranges, lets say 26% and 45%, he can't do anything. You will break his neck.

Sorry for my bad English...

"I don't think bluff heavy range will be good without specific info". I mean 4bet range. Sorry! 4bet NAI...Also postflop, check-raise and reverse float as bluff. You can try, of course. But without good info maybe this will profitable, maybe not.

Move tables. Literally. If it's a tournament, then you don't have much choice but to jam more pre flop. LAGs use their aggression to win. If you shove more, it takes that away from them.

Do NOT move tables if you have a maniac at your table, for heavens sake. This is one of the most profitable players you can play against.

As stated before is it of course more profitable if you have position on them - but just tighten up and trap or value bet thin depending on the type of maniac he is. Some like to always bluff if you check but have sense enough to fold weaker hands to bets or raises. Others call with almost every draw or hand.

As long as these players exists you must be able to play them since you would always have a stronger range. The variance can be tough but they can't be lucky forever.

Originally Posted by pentazepam

Do NOT move tables if you have a maniac at your table, for heavens sake. This is one of the most profitable players you can play against.

If its an absolutely insane maniac, like playing 80% of his hands, then I will usually stay and try to give him the rope to hang himself, as you suggest. Or if at at possible I will do a "musical chairs" and change seat.

But if its more into the LAG type of player, someone who is a little bit to loose and very aggressive, like maybe a 25/21 for full ring, or a 33/29 for 6max, then I dont want to have that player on my direct left. I will get 3-bet more and floated more, and even if I adjust correctly, this is still going to hurt my winrate a lot.

The OP said "LAG" not "maniac" so that's what I'm going off. Move tables unless it's not possible. You could also stick around and hope to get some premiums but you're leaving your winrate down to chance.

Originally Posted by fundiver199

If its an absolutely insane maniac, like playing 80% of his hands, then I will usually stay and try to give him the rope to hang himself, as you suggest. Or if at at possible I will do a "musical chairs" and change seat.

But if its more into the LAG type of player, someone who is a little bit to loose and very aggressive, like maybe a 25/21 for full ring, or a 33/29 for 6max, then I dont want to have that player on my direct left. I will get 3-bet more and floated more, and even if I adjust correctly, this is still going to hurt my winrate a lot.

I agree with you that a GOOD LAG on your left is hard to beat even for the best players. But if you sit at the table at the first place your target is usually some other bad player so I'm not leaving unless I find a better table over-all. Switching seat if possible is of course the best solution. But online with maybe a waiting list that can be hard.

In this particular example OP also stated that the player busted with AJ (or something like it). Few good LAGs (if deep) bust with AJ. Certainly not PF and hardly on any board against AA if they aren't bluffing the river. Maybe a board like AJJ52 or something if for value or calling big bets/raises.

So with the little information we have: a very high VPIP (40) combined with him losing his stack with AJ I don't assume it is a good LAG. Not necessarily a maniac but an overaggressive bad (or at best average) player.

Originally Posted by TheGenera1

The OP said "LAG" not "maniac" so that's what I'm going off. Move tables unless it's not possible. You could also stick around and hope to get some premiums but you're leaving your winrate down to chance.

The OP also said: He eventually busted out and left table after he showed down his AJs (or something like that) against AA.

Plus a VPIP of 40.

As I stated in a post above with that info even if it is little info I do thing it is a BAD LAG.

A bad LAG or a maniac is a fluid or maybe a semantic thing.

My main point is that if you want to get good at poker you should be able to handle these players by tightening op PF and either trap or value-bet them thin post depending on their type and tendencies. You also get a chance to 4-bet your good hands PF if you choose.

But of course it's easier to play against total calling stations that lets you see a flop at the price you set yourself.

I rather play against a bad LAG than a nit or TAG. The money must first be in the pot for you to earn it. A nit to your left that gives up his blind to often is of course nice but unless you play higher than 100NL it does not earn you that much money (unless they fold all the time).

Hey
Loose aggressive players are normally fun to play with.
Unless you are having a bad day at poker.

Otherwise its better to play a LAG than a TAG
maybe I am wrong but thats my opinion.

NIT -OR and call only with good very profitable hands, low 3bet
TAG-OR and call with hands with at least 30/100, the 3bet can be 6-10%
LAG -OR and call with borderline hands, the 3bet can be 8-12%

If the 3bet is high, probably he is a maniac. And the problem is the 3bet. Not PFR/VPIP.

At the moment, I practically do not play Cash. When playing heads up, unfortunately you can often meet lag-players. Previously, 80 percent of the entire field was made up of tag-players, which are easy to defeat, but now, 80 percent is a lag-style, for this reason it is necessary to change strategies and adapt to their frequency. Among the lag-style, I distinguish 3 different types of players according to the level of poker thinking. Usually the whole game is limited to the first two levels of lag-players. The first type of thinking of the lag-player is defeated by the usual slowplay, the second type of thinking is by understanding the frequency and bluffing. The third type of thinking of the lag player is very difficult, often this game turns into a very aggressive bluff game, where the one who has the most kicker usually wins. Usually strong lag-players of the third level of thinking avoid encounters with each other, and study statistics on special sites before starting to play HU, or Cash.