Fieldsy
Rock Star
Silver Level
I actually agree. I meant to say don't try to out maniac a maniac. If you have cards you know they are not to your standards to raise, but you know the maniac would treat them like aces, then I suppose 3bet light.
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baudib1
Legend
Silver Level
No, that's not the point.
Fieldsy
Rock Star
Silver Level
can you explain more into this?
B
baudib1
Legend
Silver Level
If you don't understand 3-bet strategies it'd take too long to explain. But basically I would tweak all of your 3-bet ranges quite a bit.
-- Take some hands off the top of your folding range to add several combos to your polarized 3-beting range
-- Add some suited hands to your merged 3-bet range
Use ranges as applicable (depending on his defending frequencies)
If you feel your ranges are then too wide, you can add some value hands to your calling range. But mostly I would be 3-betting pretty wide for value.
-- Take some hands off the top of your folding range to add several combos to your polarized 3-beting range
-- Add some suited hands to your merged 3-bet range
Use ranges as applicable (depending on his defending frequencies)
If you feel your ranges are then too wide, you can add some value hands to your calling range. But mostly I would be 3-betting pretty wide for value.
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bartonjoel
Rising Star
Bronze Level
Disagree
I think that at 1/2 - 1/3 this is a bad strategy as you are never going to be deep enough to blow the old nit off top pair hands. I agree that used sparingly this can be a good tool to have in your arsenal, but the players aren't good enough and aren't going to give up enough, so you are going to need to make a hand or two.
But this style is going to be way more profitable than waiting for Top ten % of hands and then going with it. This is assuming you can only start with 100bbs. If the game is deeper and you can buy in to top stack then go at it. The 1/3 I play regularly has max BI of $300 and this strategy while fun if your table is NITTY, I don't see it being that profitable raising 5-8 bbs with random hands too often. The $2/$5 game is buy into the big stack and this is ok strategy (sparingly).
I play way too aggressive and I am a winning player, but I am not going this far. The old guy will stack off with top pair and your cbet is getting called too often to play maniac. If you have a TAG image and you occasionaly punish the limpers I agree, but you better be a good post flop player and hand reader. You are going to be surprised at the guy who limped called PF with AA, AK, Etc. If your plan is make it $17pf with 3 limpers, what size is your cbet? $25? Now you are in a $100 pot with chit and trust me, the major leak at this level is calling to wide not folding too much.
I take it all back if your game has an avg stack of over 200bbs.
I think the point that all readers should take away from that article is if you are assumed to be "BAD" by the table when you do hit a hand, you will be paid in full. while if you are assumed to be Tight by the table they are less likely to pay you off . But you can make a nice profit of 5-10bbs per hour just playing good poker, and I think you are bringing unneeded variance into your game if you play this style too often.
And also bringing other levels of thinking that will cause you problems cause they don't think past level 2 and now you start considering "well he saw me squeeze with 9high, so I cant fold my AQ cause he is doing that so wide" Mean while he was never changing his 3betting range and you loose a decent size pot with AQ to AK. THEY don't think on levels and THEY don't consider position. AK is a raise and call from any position or a limp and call which ever they do in EP they do in LP.
I think that at 1/2 - 1/3 this is a bad strategy as you are never going to be deep enough to blow the old nit off top pair hands. I agree that used sparingly this can be a good tool to have in your arsenal, but the players aren't good enough and aren't going to give up enough, so you are going to need to make a hand or two.
But this style is going to be way more profitable than waiting for Top ten % of hands and then going with it. This is assuming you can only start with 100bbs. If the game is deeper and you can buy in to top stack then go at it. The 1/3 I play regularly has max BI of $300 and this strategy while fun if your table is NITTY, I don't see it being that profitable raising 5-8 bbs with random hands too often. The $2/$5 game is buy into the big stack and this is ok strategy (sparingly).
I play way too aggressive and I am a winning player, but I am not going this far. The old guy will stack off with top pair and your cbet is getting called too often to play maniac. If you have a TAG image and you occasionaly punish the limpers I agree, but you better be a good post flop player and hand reader. You are going to be surprised at the guy who limped called PF with AA, AK, Etc. If your plan is make it $17pf with 3 limpers, what size is your cbet? $25? Now you are in a $100 pot with chit and trust me, the major leak at this level is calling to wide not folding too much.
I take it all back if your game has an avg stack of over 200bbs.
I think the point that all readers should take away from that article is if you are assumed to be "BAD" by the table when you do hit a hand, you will be paid in full. while if you are assumed to be Tight by the table they are less likely to pay you off . But you can make a nice profit of 5-10bbs per hour just playing good poker, and I think you are bringing unneeded variance into your game if you play this style too often.
And also bringing other levels of thinking that will cause you problems cause they don't think past level 2 and now you start considering "well he saw me squeeze with 9high, so I cant fold my AQ cause he is doing that so wide" Mean while he was never changing his 3betting range and you loose a decent size pot with AQ to AK. THEY don't think on levels and THEY don't consider position. AK is a raise and call from any position or a limp and call which ever they do in EP they do in LP.
Fieldsy
Rock Star
Silver Level
Couple questions and want your advice.
1) I play in a 300max 1/2 (150bb). Usually about 6 out of 10 players buy in for the max, a couple 100bb, and maybe 1 or two who buy in for 50bb.
2) The tables usually have 1-2 nits, 1-2 maniacs, and about 5 players who don't seem to know what position is.
3) What if I use my advice, but with position I just make like a 3x-5x raise, causing many people to play, and if I flop a monster great, if not then I pull out when aggression starts with players who I know bet with a decent hand?
Next week I am spending atleast 4 days at the casino and I really want to test this logic out.
The good part about it is when I raise in other spots (ep, mp, even sometimes when I hit KK lp), people think I play any two cards and call me.
I am normally a TAG player who rarely bluffs. I know when I hit a monster, people know I aint ****ing around and they are more or less scared to play vs me. I want to see if I can throw a few curve balls so they swing and miss.
It is a fast way to make money and a fast way to lose money.
S
sleepymike
Rock Star
Silver Level
2) The tables usually have 1-2 nits, 1-2 maniacs, and about 5 players who don't seem to know what position is.
In this situation my thought would be to play your standard game but open up your range a bit LP, cert not ATC.
In this situation my thought would be to play your standard game but open up your range a bit LP, cert not ATC.
Fieldsy
Rock Star
Silver Level
I might open up my range and bet, or with rags I will simply just call. If SB/BB raises I will fold with trash.
Mr Sandbag
Legend
Silver Level
I don't like this.
Raising to $8 with AK UTG is just going to put you in an awful spot the rest of the way. Nobody respects raises that are under $10 at 1/2, so you'll be up against extremely wide ranges in a multiway pot almost all of the time. That's not poker - it's bingo. You can either raise to $8, get 5 callers, and play a $48 pot against super wide ranges, or you can raise to $15, get maybe two callers, and play a relatively same sized pot with only two opponents who you can range at least a little bit.
Karozi615
Visionary
Silver Level
I don't plave live cash (I def would if it was accessible to me) but I never understand why the open raises at a 1/2 table are like 17$. That is 8.5x, it just doesn't seem optimal AT ALL. I feel like if people are doing that regularly then you lose value in set mining and gain a ton of value in 4betting with AA and KK. It just feels like that ONE facet of the game is exploitable
Mr Sandbag
Legend
Silver Level
Yup. It's because 1/2 players aren't really "poker players" most of the time but "gamblers." They don't consider bets/raises/stacks in relation to the pot and blinds. They only think about the economic value of a bet - "is this hand worth $15?"
Matt Vaughan
King of Moody Rants
Bronze Level
The reason good players make it $10-$20 preflop depending on number of limpers is because most 1/2 players call raises too liberally. Playing multiway pots is challenging, so narrowing the field by making a larger raise makes sense. We price people out somewhat by making large raises (with 2 or 3 limpers in front of us). We also do it for value. If they'll call $20 preflop with QTo when I have KK, why shouldn't I raise that amount?
Fieldsy
Rock Star
Silver Level
What about calling lp with rags and if I get a hand that is like 78s raise to 12 (if someone raised I would call) and 3bet with good hands?
When I am up a few hundred, I do open my range and playing post flop vs these guys isn't hard. This was when I didnt really think of position as a big advantage.
When I am up a few hundred, I do open my range and playing post flop vs these guys isn't hard. This was when I didnt really think of position as a big advantage.
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baudib1
Legend
Silver Level
If you lose money in set-mining, then don't set mine. This is a pretty easy adjustment to make. There are other obvious ways to exploit this as well.
The interesting thing is that the pots are so big going to the flop and yet people will often play fit or fold and not fight enough for large pots.
This, pretty much. I have to admit I have been making smaller raises, even though I play pretty deepstacked. I've settled mostly on $10 being my standard RFI size, adjusting to make it bigger with limpers in or if OOP or if the pot is straddled.
As noted, $10 is going to be a small raise in most live games, but I feel like I need to make smaller raises because I'm opening so very very wide. People make more mistakes postflop and for sure people aren't going to play their SPRs as well as me.
However, I feel like I should readjust and go back to making more exploitable bet-sizes preflop -- I don't think anyone really makes adjustments or exploits me enough to need to disguise my hand strength.
Fieldsy
Rock Star
Silver Level
If you come off as not a nit, but not a lag, when you raise, you will either get 0 callers or 4 callers, no matter the money sometimes. When I have a big hand I usually make it 17-20, when I have a hand that is decent, I make it 12-15. Should I make the same raise with what I have regardless of the cards?
Mr Sandbag
Legend
Silver Level
Sizing your bets based on hand strength is extremely exploitable by any observant player.
I do not raise the same amount every time, but my sizing is based on other factors: position, number of limpers, which players still have cards, etc. Never really hand strength.
Example: If I'm UTG and have AA, I may raise to $17 on a loose table. If I'm on the same table on the button with AA and it has folded to me, I may raise to $10. If I'm on the same table on the button with AA and there are 4 limpers, I may raise it to $15. If I'm UTG on same table with AA but we only have six players, I may raise to $12.
It all depends on table dynamics, tendencies of the players in the hand, and your goal.
Fieldsy
Rock Star
Silver Level
I will raise more in EP and less lp, but I have to admit, until about a month ago I would raise by great hands higher QQ KK AA
Matt Vaughan
King of Moody Rants
Bronze Level
Agree. (We need to talk poker more often.) $10 has been my default into unopened pots unless I have a really good reason based on table dynamics, but I also wonder if making it bigger is better. Especially since I know I am playing tighter ranges preflop than you are, so I don't really need a larger SPR, even theoretically. (You probably don't need a larger SPR either because as you said people are giving up even in enormous pots.)
Mr Sandbag
Legend
Silver Level
I usually make it larger than $10 unless the table only has six players or most others have already folded out. I default to $12 and make adjustments from there. I feel like it's large enough to get me to a flop with 1-2 players most of the time but small enough to keep in weak ranges.
Mikeisanace777
Rock Star
Silver Level
Easy game to crush just be prepared to fold.
1/2 is a little more wild as people see it as one a dollar vs the red 5 dollar chips in 1/3 yet it's really the same game. From utg and pos 1-4 play lots of hands if the table only raises to say 10 dollars max. This in essence to your 250 buy in is cheap flops. Play hands like 56-7-10 and 10-j hands that can take peoples stack if the flop comes right and the players on the table dont shove the turn or over bet flops. Just sit back and call and be prepared to fold and raise scary rivers if everyone seems meek. This is rare though. Overall in position it's better with hands like 88-though jj are good to simply call peoples raises with and hope to flop big usually a set or a very rag board. I recommend calling with ak often from position,raising hands to 15 with say q-10 suited aa,kk.qq and 56 off even 42 suited occasionally. Be random see a lot of flops and if your in a game with loose overbetters just wait you can take their whole stack if your patient when you get a nut flush draw with ak and one pair,or a set of 44.
1/2 is a little more wild as people see it as one a dollar vs the red 5 dollar chips in 1/3 yet it's really the same game. From utg and pos 1-4 play lots of hands if the table only raises to say 10 dollars max. This in essence to your 250 buy in is cheap flops. Play hands like 56-7-10 and 10-j hands that can take peoples stack if the flop comes right and the players on the table dont shove the turn or over bet flops. Just sit back and call and be prepared to fold and raise scary rivers if everyone seems meek. This is rare though. Overall in position it's better with hands like 88-though jj are good to simply call peoples raises with and hope to flop big usually a set or a very rag board. I recommend calling with ak often from position,raising hands to 15 with say q-10 suited aa,kk.qq and 56 off even 42 suited occasionally. Be random see a lot of flops and if your in a game with loose overbetters just wait you can take their whole stack if your patient when you get a nut flush draw with ak and one pair,or a set of 44.