Help. Overpairs losing to Sets....again and again

[Big_Rudy]

This is a table selection/ BRM issue. If you choose tables full of loose,bad players you can usually bet pot on 3 streets with overpairs until you are re-raised.
You cannot play scared, getting stacked is part of playing NLHE. If you are playing at proper stakes for your bankroll losing buy-ins with AA & KK should not deter you from playing these hands fast.

What? Am I nittier than Fx? Say it isn't so. Getting stacked at NLHE is NOT part of the game. At least not the way I play it. Unless I'm the one doing the stacking of course!!!

I really don't believe its a BRM issue either. I'm always comfortably rolled for the level I play at, and have never had to move down due to losses. In fact, I'm at 25nl now, an have been a decent winner at every level along the way, except for a long stretch at 10nl where I was only a slight winner.

Table selection, on the other hand, is a HUGE issue for me. I never seem to find these tables full of loose/passive fish that everyone says are so plentiful at the micros. Thats another reason that I play the short-buy tables. At least there I only have to be better than the short-stacked shove-monkeys to turn a decent profit. Not a problem.

I think it may also be a bet-sizing issue. Others have said that you should bet,bet, and bet your overpairs in the micros. This usually doesn't work for me. Since I am SO nitty typically one of two things happens when I have a big pocket pair. Either I raise and get a table full of insta-folds (winning a small pot), or I get called on every street and, sure enough, on the river I'll either be facing a check-raise or a re-raise. Usually one or the other of us has so little left behind at this point that I practically have to call regardless and end losing a big pot.

These scenarios play-out so often (winning small pots with big PP and losing big ones with them) that I've actually started just limping with my big PP and relying on the short-stackers to shove over top of me so that I can call them down to turn a profit. it seems to work OK at the short-buy tables since there are so many players there looking to shove pre-flop any chance they get.

I don't know. I'd like to play the full-buy tables again. But I have a real issue with table selection. Usually what happens is that I'll find a table that looks like it should be good in the lobby, but once I get to the table it'll be playing FAR more TAG that the lobby suggested it was. This happens again and again and I eventually get tired of searching and just stay at a table that I know I shouldn't. I really need to come-up with a way to find decent tables.

 

[cAPSLOCK]

^^^^^ this.
i am going all-in on that flop, seeing if he wants to come for a ride

Hmm... I think you might be over shooting a little here.

What will he call with?
If he's beat why would you want to let him out cheaply?

 

[c9h13no3]

SPR, make it small. Win money with over pairs.

 

[NineLions]

Since I am SO nitty typically one of two things happens when I have a big pocket pair. Either I raise and get a table full of insta-folds (winning a small pot), or I get called on every street and, sure enough, on the river I'll either be facing a check-raise or a re-raise. Usually one or the other of us has so little left behind at this point that I practically have to call regardless and end losing a big pot.

These scenarios play-out so often (winning small pots with big PP and losing big ones with them) that I've actually started just limping with my big PP and relying on the short-stackers to shove over top of me so that I can call them down to turn a profit. it seems to work OK at the short-buy tables since there are so many players there looking to shove pre-flop any chance they get.

1) Open your late position raising range wider. This will result in stolen blinds or give you position on the flop if called. It will also get you involved in more hands so that you don't seem so nitty.

2) Open raise your pocket pairs from all positions, either all, or just down to 77 from early if you prefer. If called you'll often miss the flop and have an underpair, but then you're not tied to your hand like you might be with overpairs. Bet/fold these postflop most of the time, but that's okay. With the ones you win preflop plus the ones you win with a bet on the flop you'll be ahead, plus again it gets you involved so you don't look so nitty. If you have a really nitty table you can play middle suited connectors the same way. Just remember that you're looking for better than one pair with these hands if you go more than one street, unless you have a real fish.

 

[Big_Rudy]

1) Open your late position raising range wider. This will result in stolen blinds or give you position on the flop if called. It will also get you involved in more hands so that you don't seem so nitty.

Yeah, this is a real problem for me (one of many). I try to widen my range from the CO and Button, but when I do my win-rate from those positions drops pretty drastically. For the longest time I was actually losing money from the button and barely winning from the CO. I think I'm ahead in both positions now, but just barely. This was while running somewhere in the neighborhood of 18/15 from LP (don't have HEM open now, but those numbers are pretty close). The problem is that I'm just such a natural nit, that if I widen my range and villain doesn't fold pre-flop, I'm often lost, or at least in an uncomfortable position.

 

[NineLions]

Yeah, this is a real problem for me (one of many). I try to widen my range from the CO and Button, but when I do my win-rate from those positions drops pretty drastically. For the longest time I was actually losing money from the button and barely winning from the CO. I think I'm ahead in both positions now, but just barely. This was while running somewhere in the neighborhood of 18/15 from LP (don't have HEM open now, but those numbers are pretty close). The problem is that I'm just such a natural nit, that if I widen my range and villain doesn't fold pre-flop, I'm often lost, or at least in an uncomfortable position.

That's, pretty, strange.

For one thing, 18 still isn't open; closer to 30 would be open. At $25nl FR I was running 8 in early and 20 from the CO and 25 or something on the button. And I still consider myself a nit by default.

What's your continuation bet percentage? If you're a nit they should be folding to your c-bets so you should be c-betting like 80% of the time that you get called, unless you get multiple callers.

What stakes are you playing? Are you taking into consideration the looseness, blind defence, flop fold percentage of the blinds?

 

[Big_Rudy]

Yeah, I thought it was really strange too. The numbers are SLOOOWLY coming back into line where you would expect them to be. Its just taking awhile learning how to play a ridculously loose 18/15 effectively from the botton . I can't imagine playing 30/x. I'd be completely lost.

I play 25nl. I manage to win in the neighboorhood of 4.5-5 bb/100, but thats mostly from EP and MP when I open-raise or raise a couple of limpers and get a table full of folds. I'm not that great at post-flop play since I'm usually either folding pre myself, or folding everyone else out pre when I raise from EP/MP. I usually run about 9/7, so when I raise I usually don't get any action.

I nearly always CB, especially from LP. Probably too much. Anyway, its a work in progress. I know I need to be wider from LP, I'm just not used to getting much post-flop action and when someone just flats my CB, or even Check-raises me, I'm usually pretty much in the dark about what to do next. Point being, its not all that easy to simply widen your range if you've always been an uber-nit like me.

Thanks for the tips though. I agree you're right about what needs to be done and I'm working on it. Its just going to take awhile.

 

[NineLions]

It might be worth your while to go to $10nl and play 6 max for a while, or do so at $25. It'll force you to open your range and to play post-flop with more marginal hands, and give you more practice working on your hand reading.

Or try one of SplitSuit's things where he went to $10nl with the restriction that he had to open raise every hand that wasn't already opened. That's probably better done at Rush Poker where people won't notice so much, but it's a good exercise too. I think he has a video that he did on his site that used to be available for anyone to watch if you Google him.

 

[Stu_Ungar]

SPR, make it small. Win money with over pairs.

Id go in the other direction.

Its impossible to create a small SPR in a limped or unopened pot with 100bb.

So create a large SPR, such that its impossible to stack off.

 

[WVHillbilly]

Id go in the other direction.

Its impossible to create a small SPR in a limped or unopened pot with 100bb.

So create a large SPR, such that its impossible to stack off.

Why are you in a limped or unopened pot with an overpair???

 

[Stu_Ungar]

Im assuming its limped ahead of me.

You cannot get the SPR down low enough preflop to make stacking off postflop an automatic decision.

 

[orangepeeleo]

I know about SPR but in practice at the micros it is hard to follow imo.

To create a decent small SPR for a big pair would it not take a raise big enough that we lose value from hands that would call a smaller raise, say Ax, and then poss stack off when their larger x hands hits top pair??

I need to re-read (can't remember the name of the book, the one with a lot of SPR stuff??) but i'm sure that when i first read it i went the same way as stu and preferred to make larger spr's so that i could get away from a big hand

 

[orangepeeleo]

Im assuming its limped ahead of me.

You cannot get the SPR down low enough preflop to make stacking off postflop an automatic decision.

I'm rubbish at posting fast, this is pretty much what i was getting at with the above.

 

[Stu_Ungar]

I need to re-read (can't remember the name of the book, the one with a lot of SPR stuff??) but i'm sure that when i first read it i went the same way as stu and preferred to make larger spr's so that i could get away from a big hand

Ideally we would like to get a small SPR and stack off, but with 100bb+ we just cant do that facing a single limper. Our raise size would need to be in the region of a standard 3bet size.

So like you say if we cant create the ideal small SPR then we need to look to see if a large SPR is possible.

 

[ComplexPlaya]

Why are you in a limped or unopened pot with an overpair???

I believe he means he is raising, but it's still hard to create a small SPR. It will be about 10 on the flop.

I agree with you though, the general rule of thumb should be to bet big until raised, where you can usually safely fold on rainbow uncoordinated boards. Of course the real problems come with drawy boards

 

[orangepeeleo]

I need to re-read (can't remember the name of the book, the one with a lot of SPR stuff??)

PNLHE??

 

[Stu_Ungar]

PNLHE??

Yeah thats the one.

 

[Stu_Ungar]

I believe he means he is raising, but it's still hard to create a small SPR. It will be about 10 on the flop.

I agree with you though, the general rule of thumb should be to bet big until raised, where you can usually safely fold on rainbow uncoordinated boards. Of course the real problems come with drawy boards

Thats it.

You definitely need to raise, but at the same time you need to be aware that you do not want to be playing for stacks postflop most of the time.

 

[Roberto4063]

ok im getting killed by flat callers holding KK and AA. how do i stop it???????

 

[ComplexPlaya]

ok im getting killed by flat callers holding KK and AA. how do i stop it???????

Ask them not to flat call big hands against you anymore.

 

[Roberto4063]

Ask them not to flat call big hands against you anymore.

I wonder why i didn't try that in the first place. You've been very helpful.:withstupi

 

[ComplexPlaya]

I wonder why i didn't try that in the first place. You've been very helpful.:withstupi

Oh, how ironic can irony be sometimes...

 

[fx20736]

Oh, how ironic can irony be sometimes...

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